5 ms·

The number of days where it makes no little or no contribution to the UK grid surprises me: https://gridwatch.co.uk/Wind https://gridwatch.co.uk/Wind In the p

The number of days where it makes no little or no contribution to the UK grid surprises me: https://gridwatch.co.uk/Wind https://gridwatch.co.uk/Wind In the press, at least, it seems that the UK is consolidating on wind as the 'green solution', when it's clear the UK needs a much more mixed solution. Doggerland is interesting purely for the bones and artefacts that are dredged up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland#Discovery_and_investigation_by_archaeologists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland#Discovery_and_inves...). It's a shame the article didn't mention anything about that.

aries1980 6y ago
Afaik green energy has never meant to provide standalone, at least until the surplus energy generated at daily peaks can be reasonably stored for days. This paper is a bit dated, but explains well some of the concerns: http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/Renewable%20Energy%20Limitations.pdf http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/Renewable%20Energy%20Limi...
qayxc 6y ago
Careful there buddy! Take a look at the actual time when wind power contributed little or nothing. It's mostly night hours between 23:00 and 5:00. Contrary to conventional power sources, wind power can be regulated basically "on-the-spot" by turning turbines on and off. Living next to a small on-shore wind farm, I can tell you from first hand observation that most of the time turbines are turned off deliberately, because production simply exceeds demand. A chart like the one you've linked to doesn't tell the whole story and can be very misleading indeed. You'd need to plot the actual load on the grid versus production to get a better picture.
- saargrin 6y ago
  wouldnt the turbines be safer if they are spinning instead of being parked? you could just disengage the dynamo..
  - qayxc 6y ago
    No, that'd be a bad idea. Keep in mind that the rotors and mechanical parts are subject to wear and tear. A rotor that's feathered experiences less mechanical stress and thus lasts longer. Same goes for any other moving parts. It's a measure to increase the lifetime and reduce the risk of fires (e.g. from spinning too fast due to lack of mechanical load from the generator).
  - mkingston 6y ago
    I'm no expert, but I guess if you disengage the load the turbine blades would accelerate until the internal heat losses to friction matched the energy input from the wind. In other words, they'd spin very quickly, probably far in excess of their design speed, meaning at best that they would wear out much more quickly, or I guess more likely RUD (rapid unscheduled disassembly), causing them to be considerably more dangerous.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    No. A parked turbine has its blades furled and is locked in place. A freely spinning but disengaged turbine is super dangerous because there is nothing to stop it from overspeeding and that can happen quite quickly with the right gust of wind. So you always want to have drag on a spinning turbine.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    That's how you get this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u14tBwO5QVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u14tBwO5QVQ Ultimately, the energy has to go _somewhere_, if it's spinning.
- aries1980 6y ago
  There were couple of days recently when almost zero energy was generated by wind: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/blackouts-fear-forces-power-alarm-at-national-grid-cr7fjr5xb https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/blackouts-fear-forces-pow... (an excerpt without being paywalled: https://www.thegwpf.com/britain-faces-green-energy-disaster-as-lack-of-wind-triggers-blackout-alarm/ https://www.thegwpf.com/britain-faces-green-energy-disaster-...)
  - qayxc 6y ago
    The excerpt speaks for the "quality" of this kind of journalism: headline says > "Britain faces green energy disaster as lack of wind triggers new blackout warning" Actual quote says: > National Grid said the margin notice “highlights that we would like a greater safety cushion between power demand and available supply” but “does not signal that blackouts are imminent”. In short: yes, regenerative or "green" energy requires a different approach, including overprovisioning, short term storage, and stand-by power stations (e.g. natural gas-powered ones) in order to work reliably. That's not news, however, that's a well known fact. Plus both wind and solar can be predicted fairly well over the short term and a more intelligent grid could be used to adjust demand accordingly to also help with this. It's an issue, sure, but not a show-stopper.
    - aries1980 6y ago
      > The excerpt speaks for the "quality" of this kind of journalism: headline says I agree, just I couldn't find a better link to the National Grid announcement.
  - aries1980 6y ago
    Posting a link from a 240-year-old Western medium that was downvoted to -3 from the default 1 was the last time I wasted my time on commenting a HN post.
- tyho 6y ago
  Why then, would they shut down a wind turbine rather than a gas turbine. There was no point in the last year where gas turbines were not supplying power. If what you say is true, then the grid is being run in a more carbon intensive way than necessary. Why would this be?
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    My guess: When the spot price of electricity turns negative (or low enough that is not covering costs), a wind turbine can put on the brakes immediately, whereas a gas turbine might prefer to accept some loss.
  - mrow84 6y ago
    Because, as qayxc intimated with "Contrary to conventional power sources", it is more expensive to turn gas turbines off and on again than it is wind turbines. Price will dictate action in a marketplace, so sufficient incentives need to be introduced to motivate greener supply.
    - diroussel 6y ago
      This is correct. And the costs are built into the contract. Wind and hydro dams are very easy to control. Gas is quite easy to control. Coal costs more to start and stop, but nuclear nearly changes in output over the course of a week. Nuclear is tuned to output the base load, the level below which demand never drops. Then the other sources are layered on top. For the situations where all power sources are at max output and there is still not enough power, then the UK will pull power from France. This typically happens when East Enders (TV Soap Opera) finished and millions of people turn on the kettle (high powered water heaters of 2 or 3 kW).
  - peterbraden 6y ago
    Because gas and other fossil fuels are inelastic - it's expensive to turn them off or on, and it can't be done rapidly. The fact that wind can be turned on or off at will means they can be used to balance demand spikes.
- iridium_core 6y ago
  This is why electric cars needs smart charging - plug it in when you get home, and expect for it to be charged by the time you need to go to work - but the actual charging hours should be linked to the grid in order to manage overall demand. Its a shame that this regulation and UI environment is not already ready, since these vehicles are already being mass-manufactured.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Tesla supports this in some markets where they’ve partnered with the utility to orchestrate aggregate EV charge demand.
- DrBazza 6y ago
  Some valid points. I'm curious though. If the UK wants to 'go green', then why turn wind turbines off at all, rather than turn off some carbon-based power stations instead? What's the reasoning behind that? This is a problem I've raised before - if we have excess wind electricity, why aren't we storing it? The UK doesn't really have that much pumped storage/hydro: you need hills and dams, and almost all of those are in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and are therefore difficult to build.
detritus 6y ago
Off-topic: Why on Earth does gridwatch.co.uk not work in Firefox?! Other sites that do: https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ (this is the one I've seen linked more often over the years) http://grid.iamkate.com/ http://grid.iamkate.com/

aries1980 6y ago

Afaik green energy has never meant to provide standalone, at least until the surplus energy generated at daily peaks can be reasonably stored for days. This paper is a bit dated, but explains well some of the concerns: http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/Renewable%20Energy%20Limitations.pdf http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/Renewable%20Energy%20Limi...

qayxc 6y ago

Careful there buddy! Take a look at the actual time when wind power contributed little or nothing. It's mostly night hours between 23:00 and 5:00. Contrary to conventional power sources, wind power can be regulated basically "on-the-spot" by turning turbines on and off. Living next to a small on-shore wind farm, I can tell you from first hand observation that most of the time turbines are turned off deliberately, because production simply exceeds demand. A chart like the one you've linked to doesn't tell the whole story and can be very misleading indeed. You'd need to plot the actual load on the grid versus production to get a better picture.

saargrin 6y ago
wouldnt the turbines be safer if they are spinning instead of being parked? you could just disengage the dynamo..
- qayxc 6y ago
  No, that'd be a bad idea. Keep in mind that the rotors and mechanical parts are subject to wear and tear. A rotor that's feathered experiences less mechanical stress and thus lasts longer. Same goes for any other moving parts. It's a measure to increase the lifetime and reduce the risk of fires (e.g. from spinning too fast due to lack of mechanical load from the generator).
- mkingston 6y ago
  I'm no expert, but I guess if you disengage the load the turbine blades would accelerate until the internal heat losses to friction matched the energy input from the wind. In other words, they'd spin very quickly, probably far in excess of their design speed, meaning at best that they would wear out much more quickly, or I guess more likely RUD (rapid unscheduled disassembly), causing them to be considerably more dangerous.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  No. A parked turbine has its blades furled and is locked in place. A freely spinning but disengaged turbine is super dangerous because there is nothing to stop it from overspeeding and that can happen quite quickly with the right gust of wind. So you always want to have drag on a spinning turbine.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  That's how you get this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u14tBwO5QVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u14tBwO5QVQ Ultimately, the energy has to go _somewhere_, if it's spinning.
aries1980 6y ago
There were couple of days recently when almost zero energy was generated by wind: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/blackouts-fear-forces-power-alarm-at-national-grid-cr7fjr5xb https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/blackouts-fear-forces-pow... (an excerpt without being paywalled: https://www.thegwpf.com/britain-faces-green-energy-disaster-as-lack-of-wind-triggers-blackout-alarm/ https://www.thegwpf.com/britain-faces-green-energy-disaster-...)
- qayxc 6y ago
  The excerpt speaks for the "quality" of this kind of journalism: headline says > "Britain faces green energy disaster as lack of wind triggers new blackout warning" Actual quote says: > National Grid said the margin notice “highlights that we would like a greater safety cushion between power demand and available supply” but “does not signal that blackouts are imminent”. In short: yes, regenerative or "green" energy requires a different approach, including overprovisioning, short term storage, and stand-by power stations (e.g. natural gas-powered ones) in order to work reliably. That's not news, however, that's a well known fact. Plus both wind and solar can be predicted fairly well over the short term and a more intelligent grid could be used to adjust demand accordingly to also help with this. It's an issue, sure, but not a show-stopper.
  - aries1980 6y ago
    > The excerpt speaks for the "quality" of this kind of journalism: headline says I agree, just I couldn't find a better link to the National Grid announcement.
- aries1980 6y ago
  Posting a link from a 240-year-old Western medium that was downvoted to -3 from the default 1 was the last time I wasted my time on commenting a HN post.
tyho 6y ago
Why then, would they shut down a wind turbine rather than a gas turbine. There was no point in the last year where gas turbines were not supplying power. If what you say is true, then the grid is being run in a more carbon intensive way than necessary. Why would this be?
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  My guess: When the spot price of electricity turns negative (or low enough that is not covering costs), a wind turbine can put on the brakes immediately, whereas a gas turbine might prefer to accept some loss.
- mrow84 6y ago
  Because, as qayxc intimated with "Contrary to conventional power sources", it is more expensive to turn gas turbines off and on again than it is wind turbines. Price will dictate action in a marketplace, so sufficient incentives need to be introduced to motivate greener supply.
  - diroussel 6y ago
    This is correct. And the costs are built into the contract. Wind and hydro dams are very easy to control. Gas is quite easy to control. Coal costs more to start and stop, but nuclear nearly changes in output over the course of a week. Nuclear is tuned to output the base load, the level below which demand never drops. Then the other sources are layered on top. For the situations where all power sources are at max output and there is still not enough power, then the UK will pull power from France. This typically happens when East Enders (TV Soap Opera) finished and millions of people turn on the kettle (high powered water heaters of 2 or 3 kW).
- peterbraden 6y ago
  Because gas and other fossil fuels are inelastic - it's expensive to turn them off or on, and it can't be done rapidly. The fact that wind can be turned on or off at will means they can be used to balance demand spikes.
iridium_core 6y ago
This is why electric cars needs smart charging - plug it in when you get home, and expect for it to be charged by the time you need to go to work - but the actual charging hours should be linked to the grid in order to manage overall demand. Its a shame that this regulation and UI environment is not already ready, since these vehicles are already being mass-manufactured.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Tesla supports this in some markets where they’ve partnered with the utility to orchestrate aggregate EV charge demand.
DrBazza 6y ago
Some valid points. I'm curious though. If the UK wants to 'go green', then why turn wind turbines off at all, rather than turn off some carbon-based power stations instead? What's the reasoning behind that? This is a problem I've raised before - if we have excess wind electricity, why aren't we storing it? The UK doesn't really have that much pumped storage/hydro: you need hills and dams, and almost all of those are in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and are therefore difficult to build.

detritus 6y ago

Off-topic: Why on Earth does gridwatch.co.uk not work in Firefox?! Other sites that do: https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ (this is the one I've seen linked more often over the years) http://grid.iamkate.com/ http://grid.iamkate.com/