3 ms·

>I don't care how often it happens. Yes, that is clear. > If you have solved the problem of data integrity... As above, this is not a binary, black and white

>I don't care how often it happens. Yes, that is clear. > If you have solved the problem of data integrity... As above, this is not a binary, black and white thing, but you keep presenting it as such. It's probabilistic, and higher protection is not free - the tradeoff is engineering. > Redundancy alone reduces the probability of spurious failure by several magnitudes ECC "alone reduces the probability of spurious failure by several magnitudes". That's why it is used. Naive redundancy ignores almost a century of better method form forward error correcting codes. I have a feeling your idea of redundancy is having multiple exact copies of a system or data and having them vote, which is a terribly expensive way to do data protection when there are vastly better methods. >Of course, somebody who sells ECC RAM will want to convince you that ECC actually solves a real problem. The same can be said about the nutritional supplement industry, or many other industries that rely on make-belief. And we're done. If you don't think ECC helps a real problem then I see why you don't understand bitflip causing problems. Good luck.

incrudible 6y ago
> As above, this is not a binary, black and white thing, but you keep presenting it as such. It's probabilistic, and higher protection is not free - the tradeoff is engineering. The actual problem is binary. You either solved it, or you didn't. ECC is "free", but it doesn't actually solve the problem. Actually solving the problem requires engineering. Of course there's a probabilistic element to it, but the problem is to drive the probability of failure to "vanishingly small". The utility of adding or removing a vanishingly small constant to another vanishingly small constant is vanishingly small. This is what ECC does for you. > ECC "alone reduces the probability of spurious failure by several magnitudes". That's why it is used. ECC reduces the probability of spurious failure due to bitflips in DRAM by several magnitudes. However, spurious failure can occur for so many more reasons that the bitflip issue becomes a vanishingly small part. > I have a feeling your idea of redundancy is having multiple exact copies of a system or data and having them vote, which is a terribly expensive way to do data protection when there are vastly better methods. As you know, having worked for NASA, this is the right choice under certain circumstances. If there are lives on the line and you have a choice between "not solving a problem" and "a terribly expensive solution", you should go with the latter. > If you don't think ECC helps a real problem then I see why you don't understand bitflip causing problems. ECC does not solve the problem of data integrity. If you actually solve the problem of data integrity, you will find that ECC becomes effectively redundant. Do we not fundamentally agree on this? If so, why not? That's not to say ECC is entirely useless from an administrative standpoint. It makes DRAM bitflips one less thing to worry about. One less thing out of thousands of things. Commensurately, the cost of ECC in a given deployment, like its utility, is vanishingly small.

incrudible 6y ago

> As above, this is not a binary, black and white thing, but you keep presenting it as such. It's probabilistic, and higher protection is not free - the tradeoff is engineering. The actual problem is binary. You either solved it, or you didn't. ECC is "free", but it doesn't actually solve the problem. Actually solving the problem requires engineering. Of course there's a probabilistic element to it, but the problem is to drive the probability of failure to "vanishingly small". The utility of adding or removing a vanishingly small constant to another vanishingly small constant is vanishingly small. This is what ECC does for you. > ECC "alone reduces the probability of spurious failure by several magnitudes". That's why it is used. ECC reduces the probability of spurious failure due to bitflips in DRAM by several magnitudes. However, spurious failure can occur for so many more reasons that the bitflip issue becomes a vanishingly small part. > I have a feeling your idea of redundancy is having multiple exact copies of a system or data and having them vote, which is a terribly expensive way to do data protection when there are vastly better methods. As you know, having worked for NASA, this is the right choice under certain circumstances. If there are lives on the line and you have a choice between "not solving a problem" and "a terribly expensive solution", you should go with the latter. > If you don't think ECC helps a real problem then I see why you don't understand bitflip causing problems. ECC does not solve the problem of data integrity. If you actually solve the problem of data integrity, you will find that ECC becomes effectively redundant. Do we not fundamentally agree on this? If so, why not? That's not to say ECC is entirely useless from an administrative standpoint. It makes DRAM bitflips one less thing to worry about. One less thing out of thousands of things. Commensurately, the cost of ECC in a given deployment, like its utility, is vanishingly small.