5 ms·

One positive byproduct is that union membership is a quality signal for both employers and employees. I.e., as a producer, I know non-union candidates will be l

by fovc 6y ago

One positive byproduct is that union membership is a quality signal for both employers and employees. I.e., as a producer, I know non-union candidates will be less experienced; as an employee I know a movie using non union labor is not going to run as smoothly. Could be good for the startup market if this additional data point becomes reliable

bitcharmer 6y ago
Genuine question as I don't know that industry at all. How does being a member of a union imply more experience?
- kenhwang 6y ago
  The unions (edit: film industry) require a certain amount of work experience to join and some have different levels of membership depending on how much work you do after joining. Because everyone prefers union workers, it creates a situation where the non-union worker has to get noticed somehow (nepotism or exceptional work) to convince someone to take a risk and hire them to earn enough work to gain union membership.
  - throwaway316943 6y ago
    I look forward to a future where bright young engineers spend their twenties bussing tables while trying to get into the software guild.
  - humanrebar 6y ago
    It's worth pointing out that in those situations unions aren't better for all workers. Also notice there's a strong gig economy component to establishing professional credentials.
    - kenhwang 6y ago
      Of course. Which can be evidenced by the working conditions in the film industry for the typical staff and the lack of diversity at the top.
  - jcims 6y ago
    >Because everyone prefers union workers Everyone? What union are you talking about?
    - kenhwang 6y ago
      Everyone in the US film industry for these unions: https://castifi.com/2020/03/24/list-of-film-industry-unions/ https://castifi.com/2020/03/24/list-of-film-industry-unions/ There's way more union members than there is work. So if the pay's the same for union or non-union (not much either way), why wouldn't you go with union labor?
      - rumala 6y ago
        The pay for union members could be higher depending on the type of production it is. For large scale television shows, if the show has gone into season 2, 3, etc, the pay scale will increase per season. For commercials and indie projects, it can be the same as non-union rates. When hiring union members, there's more paperwork to fill out and regulations that the production will have. For example, union members must be paid within a certain timeframe or else there will be late fees the production will need to pay. This is not the case with non-union members. Generally, it is a lot easier and less expensive to hire non-union workers if you can get away with it.
  - frewsxcv 6y ago
    > The unions require a certain amount of work experience to join and some have different levels of membership depending on how much work you do after joining. To users who are following along who aren't familiar, this is not how all unions works. Presumably the commenter is talking about "trade unions" which is one of many types of unions.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  At least for film production unions, there's a lot of gatekeeping for membership. It's not like a random camera operator can decide to sign up on their own.
mlthoughts2018 6y ago
This isn’t true. It just creates artificial scarcity in the form of the union membership, similar to artificial scarcity of the Bar exam, and college degrees in general, but mere union membership has even less claim to indicate skill, competence, etc. When unions function as an exclusionary fraternity, they are actually pretty horrible. A good indicator of a well-functioning union is: the union doesn’t have negative effects on people who don’t join, and they are free to do their jobs side by side with union members and nobody cares, nobody judges anyone for their personal choice, no one discriminates on pay or opportunities.
mhb 6y ago
So the way that educational outcomes have been improving as a result of union teachers with seniority being paid more?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- criddell 6y ago
  The union seeks out what the membership wants. Teachers want seniority to be protected and rewarded, so that's what they fight for.
  - jskell725 6y ago
    What force prevents unions bosses from becoming corrupt and self serving; just like we can agree a corporate boss can become? It's silly to pretend they just "always work"
    - criddell 6y ago
      Who is pretending they always work? Does something have to be perfect in order to be worth pursuing?
      - jskell725 6y ago
        You state that "the union seeks out what the membership wants" and I note ( to no argument) that this surely only happens sometimes. Other times they seek other things; perhaps not to the benefit of their workers. I'm not sure all teachers like the fact that seniority is king, and I'm also not sure that it is in fact a Net Benefit to teachers as a whole. This doesn't make unions not worth pursuing; it just means that we should be appropriately skeptical and not make blanket statements about how they surely operate.
        criddell 6y ago
        > I'm not sure all teachers like the fact that seniority is king Unions don't require unanimity. > not make blanket statements Do I really need to add modifiers to everything I say to indicate that I'm not speaking in absolutes?
throway1gjj 6y ago
In addition, I know union workers labor will cost more and be less efficient
bogomipz 6y ago
No, you have no such guarantee that a union candidate will be any more experienced than a non-union candidate. Using Hollywood and IATSE(The Editors Guild) as an example, some requirements in order to be considered for membership are: >"Editors must demonstrate 175 days of non-union work experience within the last three years, prior to the date of application." and ">Colorists must demonstrate 100 days of non-union work experience within the last two years, prior to the date of application."[1] Each of those is less than 3 months a year. I have many friends in that Union as well as SAG that have other pursuits but always make sure to do the minimum number of hours in order to maintain Union status in order to maintain the benefits. The only guarantee you have is that a union candidate has more hours that a non-union candidate working on union movie productions. >"... as an employee I know a movie using non union labor is not going to run as smoothly." Do you have any evidence that movie production in countries without unions runs less smoothly? For instance New Zealand’s uniquely non-unionized film industry has produced many blockbusters - the "Lord of the Rings Trilogy" and "The Hobbit Trilogy" being good examples. Is there any evidence that actual "boots on the ground" movie production ran any less smoothly? Would the latter trilogy have even been attempted had the former trilogy been so problematic as a result of it being non-union labor? [1] https://www.editorsguild.com/Join/Join-West-Coast https://www.editorsguild.com/Join/Join-West-Coast
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> as a producer, I know non-union candidates will be less experienced; The downside of unions is that they’re functionally a protection racket. Getting into the union isn’t easy because union members don’t want to dilute their clout. Being outside of the union makes it harder to get good work because the union will literally invest effort in shaming companies that hire you. It’s fun to imagine the benefits of being inside a union, but we need to remember that creating the union will make life worse for those outside of it (young people, workers new to the industry).

by fovc 6y ago

bitcharmer 6y ago

Genuine question as I don't know that industry at all. How does being a member of a union imply more experience?

kenhwang 6y ago
The unions (edit: film industry) require a certain amount of work experience to join and some have different levels of membership depending on how much work you do after joining. Because everyone prefers union workers, it creates a situation where the non-union worker has to get noticed somehow (nepotism or exceptional work) to convince someone to take a risk and hire them to earn enough work to gain union membership.
- throwaway316943 6y ago
  I look forward to a future where bright young engineers spend their twenties bussing tables while trying to get into the software guild.
- humanrebar 6y ago
  It's worth pointing out that in those situations unions aren't better for all workers. Also notice there's a strong gig economy component to establishing professional credentials.
  - kenhwang 6y ago
    Of course. Which can be evidenced by the working conditions in the film industry for the typical staff and the lack of diversity at the top.
- jcims 6y ago
  >Because everyone prefers union workers Everyone? What union are you talking about?
  - kenhwang 6y ago
    Everyone in the US film industry for these unions: https://castifi.com/2020/03/24/list-of-film-industry-unions/ https://castifi.com/2020/03/24/list-of-film-industry-unions/ There's way more union members than there is work. So if the pay's the same for union or non-union (not much either way), why wouldn't you go with union labor?
    - rumala 6y ago
      The pay for union members could be higher depending on the type of production it is. For large scale television shows, if the show has gone into season 2, 3, etc, the pay scale will increase per season. For commercials and indie projects, it can be the same as non-union rates. When hiring union members, there's more paperwork to fill out and regulations that the production will have. For example, union members must be paid within a certain timeframe or else there will be late fees the production will need to pay. This is not the case with non-union members. Generally, it is a lot easier and less expensive to hire non-union workers if you can get away with it.
- frewsxcv 6y ago
  > The unions require a certain amount of work experience to join and some have different levels of membership depending on how much work you do after joining. To users who are following along who aren't familiar, this is not how all unions works. Presumably the commenter is talking about "trade unions" which is one of many types of unions.
Rebelgecko 6y ago
At least for film production unions, there's a lot of gatekeeping for membership. It's not like a random camera operator can decide to sign up on their own.

mlthoughts2018 6y ago

This isn’t true. It just creates artificial scarcity in the form of the union membership, similar to artificial scarcity of the Bar exam, and college degrees in general, but mere union membership has even less claim to indicate skill, competence, etc. When unions function as an exclusionary fraternity, they are actually pretty horrible. A good indicator of a well-functioning union is: the union doesn’t have negative effects on people who don’t join, and they are free to do their jobs side by side with union members and nobody cares, nobody judges anyone for their personal choice, no one discriminates on pay or opportunities.

mhb 6y ago

So the way that educational outcomes have been improving as a result of union teachers with seniority being paid more?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
criddell 6y ago
The union seeks out what the membership wants. Teachers want seniority to be protected and rewarded, so that's what they fight for.
- jskell725 6y ago
  What force prevents unions bosses from becoming corrupt and self serving; just like we can agree a corporate boss can become? It's silly to pretend they just "always work"
  - criddell 6y ago
    Who is pretending they always work? Does something have to be perfect in order to be worth pursuing?
    - jskell725 6y ago
      You state that "the union seeks out what the membership wants" and I note ( to no argument) that this surely only happens sometimes. Other times they seek other things; perhaps not to the benefit of their workers. I'm not sure all teachers like the fact that seniority is king, and I'm also not sure that it is in fact a Net Benefit to teachers as a whole. This doesn't make unions not worth pursuing; it just means that we should be appropriately skeptical and not make blanket statements about how they surely operate.
      - criddell 6y ago
        > I'm not sure all teachers like the fact that seniority is king Unions don't require unanimity. > not make blanket statements Do I really need to add modifiers to everything I say to indicate that I'm not speaking in absolutes?

throway1gjj 6y ago

In addition, I know union workers labor will cost more and be less efficient

bogomipz 6y ago

No, you have no such guarantee that a union candidate will be any more experienced than a non-union candidate. Using Hollywood and IATSE(The Editors Guild) as an example, some requirements in order to be considered for membership are: >"Editors must demonstrate 175 days of non-union work experience within the last three years, prior to the date of application." and ">Colorists must demonstrate 100 days of non-union work experience within the last two years, prior to the date of application."[1] Each of those is less than 3 months a year. I have many friends in that Union as well as SAG that have other pursuits but always make sure to do the minimum number of hours in order to maintain Union status in order to maintain the benefits. The only guarantee you have is that a union candidate has more hours that a non-union candidate working on union movie productions. >"... as an employee I know a movie using non union labor is not going to run as smoothly." Do you have any evidence that movie production in countries without unions runs less smoothly? For instance New Zealand’s uniquely non-unionized film industry has produced many blockbusters - the "Lord of the Rings Trilogy" and "The Hobbit Trilogy" being good examples. Is there any evidence that actual "boots on the ground" movie production ran any less smoothly? Would the latter trilogy have even been attempted had the former trilogy been so problematic as a result of it being non-union labor? [1] https://www.editorsguild.com/Join/Join-West-Coast https://www.editorsguild.com/Join/Join-West-Coast

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

> as a producer, I know non-union candidates will be less experienced; The downside of unions is that they’re functionally a protection racket. Getting into the union isn’t easy because union members don’t want to dilute their clout. Being outside of the union makes it harder to get good work because the union will literally invest effort in shaming companies that hire you. It’s fun to imagine the benefits of being inside a union, but we need to remember that creating the union will make life worse for those outside of it (young people, workers new to the industry).