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This is now at 700 comments, and no one is talking about the math in the Twitter "thread". Found no mention in the Twitter replies either. Is it just me or is t

This is now at 700 comments, and no one is talking about the math in the Twitter "thread". Found no mention in the Twitter replies either. Is it just me or is the math hilariously off? [0]: "10% of $150M is $15M". Correct, but do we need a screenshot of a calculator for that, let alone Google? (why do people rely on an internet connection and Google for this?) [1]: Talking about "2/3", but putting in "0.75". So which is it? [2]: We are at $50M now. "Knock off" $20M, leaving us at $30M. Yet she puts in $20M into her Google calculator, gets 13.3% and calls it "a little over 1/10". Fair enough, but the real number is 30/150, so 1/5, 20%, double of "1/10". Come on, this was not rocket science math! Should have double-checked before publishing, especially if you're a business consultant [3]. 0: https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1345786303263219712 https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1345786303263219712 1: https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1345792380184760321 https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1345792380184760321 2: https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1345794089825021963 https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1345794089825021963, https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1345795168105066496 https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1345795168105066496 3: https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1345853158279565313 https://twitter.com/nandoodles/status/1345853158279565313

V_9 6y ago
Yes, but marketers don't really care about math. Only about the numbers! You would expect a few hiccups and a steep learning curve when the product they are trying to buy is a bid for visibility on insanely complex networks of platforms using said rocket science to guess where one's mind is at. Disclaimer: worked years in the space on the topic of performance, only one time ever have i seen an AB test correctly run and correctly understood by a client. Most requested false numbers because they couldn't understand the difference between branding, attribution and incremental sales. To be fair, neither could most anyone working in the field... Seems like that doesn't change too quick!
- kleiba 6y ago
  Yes, but marketers don't really care about math. Only about the numbers! This is hilarious.
  - jiofih 6y ago
    And sad. Same thing happens in data science now - people are happy to have any number regardless of correctness. They just need something to report on and keep the work going.
    - helmholtz 6y ago
      That famous saying known to those of us in scientific computing: The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers.
    - czep 6y ago
      As long as data science remains subservient to Product, the inevitable result is cherry picking and post hoc rationalizing of some PM's intuition. To blame is the "embedded" model in which DS works within (and takes direction from) a cross functional team driven by a PM.
- iamacyborg 6y ago
  Hah, exactly what I was writing about here https://www.jacquescorbytuech.com/writing/marketers-addicted-bad-data https://www.jacquescorbytuech.com/writing/marketers-addicted...
  - pc86 6y ago
    Hi, please don't do this. If the comments become just replies saying "I wrote about this on my blog!" with a link, they're unreadable. If you summarized your thoughts and posted it as its own comment, without a self-promotional link, I'm sure it would be very well received.
    - iamacyborg 6y ago
      Sounds fair! Thanks for the feedback. The article did spur an interesting discussion previously on HN when I published it but seems relevant again given the ongoing discussion. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25016532 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25016532
      - pc86 6y ago
        This is one of those things that isn't a big deal in isolated instances, but becomes an issue if it gets more prevalent, so it's always hard to know when/if to even say anything :)
        webmaven 6y ago
        The other problem is that the worst offenders are the ones least likely to respond to getting or seeing this sort of nudge, so there is some adverse selection going on. It's probably self correcting over the long term, but meanwhile we lose the sort of links that would (or rather, might) enrich the conversation through overcorrection by posters. It's the obverse side of the slippery slope, I guess.
KingOfCoders 6y ago
I had the same experience when marketeers talk about statistics, all of the most basic errors are made (e.g. when A/B testing or channel attribution).
Maro 6y ago
You are right, but also you asked for it by being pedantic: "common" should be "come on" :)
- antonvs 6y ago
  Or "c'mon," if you want to abbreviate it.
- diarrhea 6y ago
  Oh yes, fixed it.
ing33k 6y ago
Some one had mentioned it in the thread. Looks like it's deleted now.
ljm 6y ago
As for the calculator screenshot, that kind of stuff feels like a consequence of having 'show your working' drilled into your head at school. Which is great to show your teacher that you understood the question and didn't plug it into a calculator, but unnecessary later on.
- danielscrubs 6y ago
  Send it to your university professor and see how it goes. You can’t really blame academia for this one.
  - azmodeus 6y ago
    academia != education The education system incentives students to be teachable to conserve teacher resources. Transparent calculations are more important to help folks with low numerical skills. I think this is actually a really hard challenge to communicate simple calculations easily to a wide audience.
zapdrive 6y ago
Lol, women and maths don't work together. In her head 2/3 = 75%, because she never actually tried to understand fractions and only memorized them. Women are good at memorizing, not at understanding.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
eznzt 6y ago
>[0]: "10% of $150M is $15M". Correct, but do we need a screenshot of a calculator for that, let alone Google? (why do people rely on an internet connection and Google for this?) She knows her audience.
ksec 6y ago
Thanks it was causing me headaches when I was reading the thread. I thought it was some marketing terms and calculation I had no idea about. What how much did they actually saved? Apology in advance because I really couldn't grasp what she was saying.
MisterTea 6y ago
>(why do people rely on an internet connection and Google for this?) Because most computers lack a copy of bc in /bin.
- pc86 6y ago
  You think if every computer had bc in /bin, or the equivalent, most people wouldn't still be using Google for math? It's not the lack of tooling, it's the lack of knowing how to quickly get to the tooling. For most people, especially non-technical, Win+"calc"+enter is not intuitive. Ctrl+T+$formula+enter is. That's the difference.
  - maccard 6y ago
    Win+calc+enter searches being for a calculator on my workstation, Win+cal+enter opens a calendar, and Win+calc+enter works fine for me! Yay!
Philip-J-Fry 6y ago
I use google for maths because it's the fastest thing I can get to and TYPE my maths in without having to open a new application. You can even just type it in the search bar of Chrome/Edge and see the result immediately
- tpetry 6y ago
  It‘s ok to use google for calculations. But kind of strange to show a calculator screenshot as proof for a 10% calculation...
- smnscu 6y ago
  Both Windows and macOS support calculations in their respective system-wide search bars (Win key on Windows vs Cmd-Space for Spotlight on macOS). They both support pretty cool stuff like sqrt(9), 13^37, but Spotlight edges it slightly by also support bit shifting like 1 << 10 == 1024.
  - vollmond 6y ago
    I did not know this - thanks!
  - diarrhea 6y ago
    Is this a Cortana feature? Nothing pops up for me (WIN key), and a search online reveals it seems liked to Cortana, which I seemed to have disabled.
    - dockd 6y ago
      Start typing "calculator" after pressing WIN.
      - olyjohn 6y ago
        Win+R - Type in "calc" hit enter. Works every time, not only when Windows search decides to work.
  - 6y ago
tstrimple 6y ago
> why do people rely on an internet connection and Google for this? It's faster than opening a dedicated calculator program. If you're in a browser already, just ctrl-t and type your equation.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  CMD-Space is just as quick and works system-wide. There is a Windows equivalent as well. Works when the net is down too.
jordache 6y ago
why are you so focused on people using the google calculator? They built it, people will come. who cares!?
swyx 6y ago
I want to give her the credit of making some sort of dramatic point, but yeah it felt a little condescending.
hinkley 6y ago
Edward Tufte seems to be here on earth to suffer for some offense in a previous lifetime. To know how badly statistics get abused, to be able to describe it, and be heard by a fraction of people who can't manage to fix the problem either. No wonder he fucked off to a farm to concentrate on sculptures.

V_9 6y ago

Yes, but marketers don't really care about math. Only about the numbers! You would expect a few hiccups and a steep learning curve when the product they are trying to buy is a bid for visibility on insanely complex networks of platforms using said rocket science to guess where one's mind is at. Disclaimer: worked years in the space on the topic of performance, only one time ever have i seen an AB test correctly run and correctly understood by a client. Most requested false numbers because they couldn't understand the difference between branding, attribution and incremental sales. To be fair, neither could most anyone working in the field... Seems like that doesn't change too quick!

kleiba 6y ago
Yes, but marketers don't really care about math. Only about the numbers! This is hilarious.
- jiofih 6y ago
  And sad. Same thing happens in data science now - people are happy to have any number regardless of correctness. They just need something to report on and keep the work going.
  - helmholtz 6y ago
    That famous saying known to those of us in scientific computing: The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers.
  - czep 6y ago
    As long as data science remains subservient to Product, the inevitable result is cherry picking and post hoc rationalizing of some PM's intuition. To blame is the "embedded" model in which DS works within (and takes direction from) a cross functional team driven by a PM.
iamacyborg 6y ago
Hah, exactly what I was writing about here https://www.jacquescorbytuech.com/writing/marketers-addicted-bad-data https://www.jacquescorbytuech.com/writing/marketers-addicted...
- pc86 6y ago
  Hi, please don't do this. If the comments become just replies saying "I wrote about this on my blog!" with a link, they're unreadable. If you summarized your thoughts and posted it as its own comment, without a self-promotional link, I'm sure it would be very well received.
  - iamacyborg 6y ago
    Sounds fair! Thanks for the feedback. The article did spur an interesting discussion previously on HN when I published it but seems relevant again given the ongoing discussion. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25016532 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25016532
    - pc86 6y ago
      This is one of those things that isn't a big deal in isolated instances, but becomes an issue if it gets more prevalent, so it's always hard to know when/if to even say anything :)
      - webmaven 6y ago
        The other problem is that the worst offenders are the ones least likely to respond to getting or seeing this sort of nudge, so there is some adverse selection going on. It's probably self correcting over the long term, but meanwhile we lose the sort of links that would (or rather, might) enrich the conversation through overcorrection by posters. It's the obverse side of the slippery slope, I guess.

KingOfCoders 6y ago

I had the same experience when marketeers talk about statistics, all of the most basic errors are made (e.g. when A/B testing or channel attribution).

Maro 6y ago

You are right, but also you asked for it by being pedantic: "common" should be "come on" :)

antonvs 6y ago
Or "c'mon," if you want to abbreviate it.
diarrhea 6y ago
Oh yes, fixed it.

ing33k 6y ago

Some one had mentioned it in the thread. Looks like it's deleted now.

ljm 6y ago

As for the calculator screenshot, that kind of stuff feels like a consequence of having 'show your working' drilled into your head at school. Which is great to show your teacher that you understood the question and didn't plug it into a calculator, but unnecessary later on.

danielscrubs 6y ago
Send it to your university professor and see how it goes. You can’t really blame academia for this one.
- azmodeus 6y ago
  academia != education The education system incentives students to be teachable to conserve teacher resources. Transparent calculations are more important to help folks with low numerical skills. I think this is actually a really hard challenge to communicate simple calculations easily to a wide audience.

zapdrive 6y ago

Lol, women and maths don't work together. In her head 2/3 = 75%, because she never actually tried to understand fractions and only memorized them. Women are good at memorizing, not at understanding.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

eznzt 6y ago

>[0]: "10% of $150M is $15M". Correct, but do we need a screenshot of a calculator for that, let alone Google? (why do people rely on an internet connection and Google for this?) She knows her audience.

ksec 6y ago

Thanks it was causing me headaches when I was reading the thread. I thought it was some marketing terms and calculation I had no idea about. What how much did they actually saved? Apology in advance because I really couldn't grasp what she was saying.

MisterTea 6y ago

>(why do people rely on an internet connection and Google for this?) Because most computers lack a copy of bc in /bin.

pc86 6y ago
You think if every computer had bc in /bin, or the equivalent, most people wouldn't still be using Google for math? It's not the lack of tooling, it's the lack of knowing how to quickly get to the tooling. For most people, especially non-technical, Win+"calc"+enter is not intuitive. Ctrl+T+$formula+enter is. That's the difference.
- maccard 6y ago
  Win+calc+enter searches being for a calculator on my workstation, Win+cal+enter opens a calendar, and Win+calc+enter works fine for me! Yay!

Philip-J-Fry 6y ago

I use google for maths because it's the fastest thing I can get to and TYPE my maths in without having to open a new application. You can even just type it in the search bar of Chrome/Edge and see the result immediately

tpetry 6y ago
It‘s ok to use google for calculations. But kind of strange to show a calculator screenshot as proof for a 10% calculation...
smnscu 6y ago
Both Windows and macOS support calculations in their respective system-wide search bars (Win key on Windows vs Cmd-Space for Spotlight on macOS). They both support pretty cool stuff like sqrt(9), 13^37, but Spotlight edges it slightly by also support bit shifting like 1 << 10 == 1024.
- vollmond 6y ago
  I did not know this - thanks!
- diarrhea 6y ago
  Is this a Cortana feature? Nothing pops up for me (WIN key), and a search online reveals it seems liked to Cortana, which I seemed to have disabled.
  - dockd 6y ago
    Start typing "calculator" after pressing WIN.
    - olyjohn 6y ago
      Win+R - Type in "calc" hit enter. Works every time, not only when Windows search decides to work.
- 6y ago

tstrimple 6y ago

> why do people rely on an internet connection and Google for this? It's faster than opening a dedicated calculator program. If you're in a browser already, just ctrl-t and type your equation.

ogre_codes 6y ago
CMD-Space is just as quick and works system-wide. There is a Windows equivalent as well. Works when the net is down too.

jordache 6y ago

why are you so focused on people using the google calculator? They built it, people will come. who cares!?

swyx 6y ago

I want to give her the credit of making some sort of dramatic point, but yeah it felt a little condescending.

hinkley 6y ago

Edward Tufte seems to be here on earth to suffer for some offense in a previous lifetime. To know how badly statistics get abused, to be able to describe it, and be heard by a fraction of people who can't manage to fix the problem either. No wonder he fucked off to a farm to concentrate on sculptures.