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Health care isn't socialised, it is a mixed-system (almost nowhere has a "socialised" system...even the UK, the most effective systems are mixed like the US sys

Health care isn't socialised, it is a mixed-system (almost nowhere has a "socialised" system...even the UK, the most effective systems are mixed like the US system...Germany, in particular, is known for having fly-by-night private doctors who will do all kinds of crazy shit if you give them enough money, it is one of the only places in Europe where you can get stem-cell therapy for example...it is a very odd system). I am not sure what you mean by "legal" cap, if you want to work more or less hours you can. Other similar countries do not employ slave labour. And education is very cheap in the US (cheaper than most countries in Europe) if you go to a state college...at private universities, the fees in Germany are still very expensive (the US has better colleges, so private colleges in the US are always going to be higher than everywhere else)...you aren't comparing like to like. And presumably, you don't come from Germany because all the reasons why it is bad are reasons that wouldn't occur to most people who don't live in that system: unions that are essentially non-functional/run by companies, staggeringly low levels of consumption relative to income (Germany runs a trade surplus worth 10% of GDP, which is all funded by savings...this is as high as China when China was at peak inequality), the average wealth of German citizens is equal to Greece...an economy that isn't functioning and doesn't have the large number of billionaires that Germany has (who largely got rich in the 30s), non-existent levels of competition, non-existent levels of innovation, closed banking system that pays nothing to savers and funnels free money to bankers/large corporations who have (historically) lost it all in short order, sometimes shockingly low wages (I believe this has changed but German apprentince wages were sometimes 2 or 3 euros/hour). Again though, read about German history (or even Northern European countries, generally bar the UK)...the economic system was designed by large corporations, that is who it is for. It isn't for consumers (or google "IMF Germany report"...if you don't believe me).

Tarsul 6y ago
that's one way to paint a picture - with facts, actually. However, as parent said: There's another picture. Mandated 20 days/year holidays (in big companies it's often 30 days), overtime has to be paid (these are things that came to pass due to pressure from unions!), healthcare for everyone, rent prices that are not horrendous (and a lot of social housing), a taxation system that is friendly to people with low income, unemployment benefits, minimum wage (9€/h) etc. There's a reason so many people look up to Germany, even in Europe. Your opinion is definitely more fringe. btw. I'm German.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >overtime has to be paid (these are things that came to pass due to pressure from unions!) Not all jobs in Germany are unionized and many modern contracts have optional overtime hours built in them to prevent the employer from having to pay up for crunchtime.
smcl 6y ago
> Health care isn't socialised, it is a mixed-system (almost nowhere has a "socialised" system...even the UK, > the most effective systems are mixed like the US system...Germany, in particular, is known for having fly-by-night > private doctors who will do all kinds of crazy shit if you give them enough money I think that's missing the point a little bit - when we talk about the UK and Germany having "socialised" healthcare this usually refers to the fact that it's not primarily provided by a mishmash of private insurers and private hospitals run as businesses for profit, but by the state as a service for the populace. It doesn't mean that there's not also a small private healthcare market for the wealthy to get quicker treatment in fancier facilities or to get unusual or elective procedures. One side effect of this is that there’s basically no anxiety about losing your access to healthcare if you lose your job or choose to quit - it’s just not part of the equation. This is the main point being made here. Oh and I think we should be very careful using the words "effective" and "US system" so close together in a sentence when talking about healthcare :-) There are interesting examples of countries who have "mixed" systems though - Netherlands (where the healthcare company I work for are based) and Czech Republic (where I live) both have a sort of hybrid system of a market of health insurance companies in tandem with govt funding. And while ČR's isn't particularly spectacular, NL is very highly regarded worldwide. Frankly I'm a little surprised that those who are against M4A or single-payer don't ever cite it. Could be because the government still contribute more than the private insurers.
- hogFeast 6y ago
  I have no idea what you mean...Germany is the European version of the US healthcare system. It is very high-cost, the private sector is not small at all, and it isn't only used by the wealthy. Again, German doctors are kind of notorious. The reason why people don't mention NL is because it doesn't fit anyone's narrative. In the US, they have a mixed public/private system with a large private sector so their solution is: someone else should pay for my healthcare. Mixed systems are less attractive because, to a large extent, that is what the US has already (the US is exceptional because of the administration/ancillary costs in their system, not the structure). I agree though, NL is very good. The results are pretty average but it is very well optimised overall. I am from the UK, and healthcare is unbelivably bad because it is so ideological...that is definitely the wrong road.
bernulli 6y ago
I did not define what I meant by socialized health care, but I meant it in a positive way. Everyone is insured, and your insurance is not bound to any employer. Ironically, this means there is some actual competition in Germany (or at least more so than in the US where you can choose between the cheap and the expensive option your employer signed up for.) No, you cannot work as an employee for as long as you want. My numbers were wrong, but it's a 10hr cap per day, and 48hr cap per week, as written in another comment. In its default, beyond that, your boss is personally responsible for this. I am sure all you write about he financial system is true, but the thing is that compared to the US you can get away with much less savings and liquidity, and you get a much higher standard of living for a lot less money. Compare rent, cell phone, internet, health insurance, and you get a lot more for a lot less in Germany. With your health insurance not tied to an employer, you also don't run the risk of losing it when losing your job - e.g. in case of severe sickness, when you need insurance most. You don't need to save up for college of your kids, and can just send them to a public school. [edit: typos and added schools}

Tarsul 6y ago

that's one way to paint a picture - with facts, actually. However, as parent said: There's another picture. Mandated 20 days/year holidays (in big companies it's often 30 days), overtime has to be paid (these are things that came to pass due to pressure from unions!), healthcare for everyone, rent prices that are not horrendous (and a lot of social housing), a taxation system that is friendly to people with low income, unemployment benefits, minimum wage (9€/h) etc. There's a reason so many people look up to Germany, even in Europe. Your opinion is definitely more fringe. btw. I'm German.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>overtime has to be paid (these are things that came to pass due to pressure from unions!) Not all jobs in Germany are unionized and many modern contracts have optional overtime hours built in them to prevent the employer from having to pay up for crunchtime.

smcl 6y ago

> Health care isn't socialised, it is a mixed-system (almost nowhere has a "socialised" system...even the UK, > the most effective systems are mixed like the US system...Germany, in particular, is known for having fly-by-night > private doctors who will do all kinds of crazy shit if you give them enough money I think that's missing the point a little bit - when we talk about the UK and Germany having "socialised" healthcare this usually refers to the fact that it's not primarily provided by a mishmash of private insurers and private hospitals run as businesses for profit, but by the state as a service for the populace. It doesn't mean that there's not also a small private healthcare market for the wealthy to get quicker treatment in fancier facilities or to get unusual or elective procedures. One side effect of this is that there’s basically no anxiety about losing your access to healthcare if you lose your job or choose to quit - it’s just not part of the equation. This is the main point being made here. Oh and I think we should be very careful using the words "effective" and "US system" so close together in a sentence when talking about healthcare :-) There are interesting examples of countries who have "mixed" systems though - Netherlands (where the healthcare company I work for are based) and Czech Republic (where I live) both have a sort of hybrid system of a market of health insurance companies in tandem with govt funding. And while ČR's isn't particularly spectacular, NL is very highly regarded worldwide. Frankly I'm a little surprised that those who are against M4A or single-payer don't ever cite it. Could be because the government still contribute more than the private insurers.

hogFeast 6y ago
I have no idea what you mean...Germany is the European version of the US healthcare system. It is very high-cost, the private sector is not small at all, and it isn't only used by the wealthy. Again, German doctors are kind of notorious. The reason why people don't mention NL is because it doesn't fit anyone's narrative. In the US, they have a mixed public/private system with a large private sector so their solution is: someone else should pay for my healthcare. Mixed systems are less attractive because, to a large extent, that is what the US has already (the US is exceptional because of the administration/ancillary costs in their system, not the structure). I agree though, NL is very good. The results are pretty average but it is very well optimised overall. I am from the UK, and healthcare is unbelivably bad because it is so ideological...that is definitely the wrong road.

bernulli 6y ago

I did not define what I meant by socialized health care, but I meant it in a positive way. Everyone is insured, and your insurance is not bound to any employer. Ironically, this means there is some actual competition in Germany (or at least more so than in the US where you can choose between the cheap and the expensive option your employer signed up for.) No, you cannot work as an employee for as long as you want. My numbers were wrong, but it's a 10hr cap per day, and 48hr cap per week, as written in another comment. In its default, beyond that, your boss is personally responsible for this. I am sure all you write about he financial system is true, but the thing is that compared to the US you can get away with much less savings and liquidity, and you get a much higher standard of living for a lot less money. Compare rent, cell phone, internet, health insurance, and you get a lot more for a lot less in Germany. With your health insurance not tied to an employer, you also don't run the risk of losing it when losing your job - e.g. in case of severe sickness, when you need insurance most. You don't need to save up for college of your kids, and can just send them to a public school. [edit: typos and added schools}