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Bitcoin is a novel innovation that is actually useful to some people - it is artificial digital scarcity and a decentralized payment network that is separate fr

Bitcoin is a novel innovation that is actually useful to some people - it is artificial digital scarcity and a decentralized payment network that is separate from government or any centralized entity. It is totally voluntary. Ethereum is also an absolutely fascinating technology. Some people become “experts” and refuse to see innovation when it is staring themselves in the face. The world can’t change to these people. Also regulation has been in the crypto space for years, dunno why these guys think it is some sudden new thing.

vorpalhex 6y ago
Yes, Bitcoin is excellent for money laundering.
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  So is cash. Being free from government control can be a lifeline for those living under repression or kafkaesque regulatory morass. This is what life is like for the less privileged under the anti-money laundering regime: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakerDAO/comments/de0sys/kyc_is_absolutely_not_acceptable_for_makerdao/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MakerDAO/comments/de0sys/kyc_is_abs...
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    Why does KYC exist? Well, people were: 1. Engaging in human trafficking, which is really unfortunate for the poor and often non-white females who are being trafficked 2. Sponsoring terrorism, which sucks for the again young and often non-white females in schools that are being blown up, the women in markets getting shrapnel wounds, and the children losing parents 3. Funneling arms to terrorists, which allows them to resist police forces and continue forcing young people to be unwilling participants in the drug trade, prostitution and other pretty subpar life outcomes So yes, it's really inconvient to have to deal with KYC and miss out on that sweet stock growth on foreign markets - I encourage your example to work with his local government to pass the appropriate laws to join the world economy.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      1 and 2. If you read that post, and still think warrantless mass-surveillance via KYC mandates is good, then you must view the author as necessary collateral damage, "for the greater good". This is a cold, inhumane way to treat matters of justice. Anyway, to address your utiliarian logic: poverty is the biggest predictor of being trafficked, and KYC controls, as well as the various punitive and indiscriminate government measures they help enforce, contribute massively to poverty. They do relatively little meanwhile to stop crime, stopping less than 1% of it: https://www.ledgerinsights.com/anti-money-laundering-has-less-than-1-impact-on-crime-at-what-cost/ https://www.ledgerinsights.com/anti-money-laundering-has-les... 3. That is also the argument the Chinese Communist Party makes for its various totalitarian surveillance/control measures in Xinxiang. Anyone with a basic respect for liberal democratic principles like privacy and presumption-of-innocence/due-process will reject warrantless mass-surveillance of financial transactions and the presumption of guilt inherent to disallowing individuals who haven't proven their innocence, by disclosing private information, from conducting certain classes of financial transactions. >>So yes, it's really inconvient to have to deal with KYC and miss out on that sweet stock growth on foreign markets That is incredibly daft. Individuals being able to generate/accumulate wealth has massive knock-on effects for the people around them and the countries they live in. But here is a story about poor women of color who you seem more concerned about: https://www.coindesk.com/money-reimagined-ugly-side-kyc-aml-obsession https://www.coindesk.com/money-reimagined-ugly-side-kyc-aml-... >>At a 2015 blockchain event, Nairobi-based bitcoin pioneer Elizabeth Rossiello answered an audience question about the impact on Somalians of a recent shutdown in remittance inflows after the U.S. government had labeled the country a “high-risk jurisdiction.” The AZA Group CEO’s answer was blunt: “They starve.” I guess just more collateral damage according to the insiders in the AML/KYC compliance sector. >>I encourage your example to work with his local government to pass the appropriate laws to join the world economy. Uzbekistan is an authoritarian state. And until he can transform Uzbekistan into, first, a democratic state, and second, a compliant organ of the global AML mass-surveillance regime, it's okay for insiders like you that he is a global third class citizen. All of the poverty alleviation that being presumed innocent, instead treated like a suspect/criminal by your discriminatory policies, would bring about, will be conveniently dismissed by you.
- miguelmota 6y ago
  I always hear this argument. Can you provide a source comparing between how much money has been laundered worldwide using cash vs cryptocurrencies?
- 1ark 6y ago
  Also some of the largest banks in Europe as evident in the last couple of years.
- ur-whale 6y ago
  > Yes, Bitcoin is excellent for money laundering. True or not, this argument is essentially orthogonal to Bitcoin's usefulness and success. As others have pointed out, there are many financial institutions / instruments that also fit the bill and that does not diminish their utility. To make the point maybe more salient: a moving vehicle can be used to kill a person, that doesn't mean cars should be eliminated.

vorpalhex 6y ago

Yes, Bitcoin is excellent for money laundering.

CryptoPunk 6y ago
So is cash. Being free from government control can be a lifeline for those living under repression or kafkaesque regulatory morass. This is what life is like for the less privileged under the anti-money laundering regime: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakerDAO/comments/de0sys/kyc_is_absolutely_not_acceptable_for_makerdao/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MakerDAO/comments/de0sys/kyc_is_abs...
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  Why does KYC exist? Well, people were: 1. Engaging in human trafficking, which is really unfortunate for the poor and often non-white females who are being trafficked 2. Sponsoring terrorism, which sucks for the again young and often non-white females in schools that are being blown up, the women in markets getting shrapnel wounds, and the children losing parents 3. Funneling arms to terrorists, which allows them to resist police forces and continue forcing young people to be unwilling participants in the drug trade, prostitution and other pretty subpar life outcomes So yes, it's really inconvient to have to deal with KYC and miss out on that sweet stock growth on foreign markets - I encourage your example to work with his local government to pass the appropriate laws to join the world economy.
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    1 and 2. If you read that post, and still think warrantless mass-surveillance via KYC mandates is good, then you must view the author as necessary collateral damage, "for the greater good". This is a cold, inhumane way to treat matters of justice. Anyway, to address your utiliarian logic: poverty is the biggest predictor of being trafficked, and KYC controls, as well as the various punitive and indiscriminate government measures they help enforce, contribute massively to poverty. They do relatively little meanwhile to stop crime, stopping less than 1% of it: https://www.ledgerinsights.com/anti-money-laundering-has-less-than-1-impact-on-crime-at-what-cost/ https://www.ledgerinsights.com/anti-money-laundering-has-les... 3. That is also the argument the Chinese Communist Party makes for its various totalitarian surveillance/control measures in Xinxiang. Anyone with a basic respect for liberal democratic principles like privacy and presumption-of-innocence/due-process will reject warrantless mass-surveillance of financial transactions and the presumption of guilt inherent to disallowing individuals who haven't proven their innocence, by disclosing private information, from conducting certain classes of financial transactions. >>So yes, it's really inconvient to have to deal with KYC and miss out on that sweet stock growth on foreign markets That is incredibly daft. Individuals being able to generate/accumulate wealth has massive knock-on effects for the people around them and the countries they live in. But here is a story about poor women of color who you seem more concerned about: https://www.coindesk.com/money-reimagined-ugly-side-kyc-aml-obsession https://www.coindesk.com/money-reimagined-ugly-side-kyc-aml-... >>At a 2015 blockchain event, Nairobi-based bitcoin pioneer Elizabeth Rossiello answered an audience question about the impact on Somalians of a recent shutdown in remittance inflows after the U.S. government had labeled the country a “high-risk jurisdiction.” The AZA Group CEO’s answer was blunt: “They starve.” I guess just more collateral damage according to the insiders in the AML/KYC compliance sector. >>I encourage your example to work with his local government to pass the appropriate laws to join the world economy. Uzbekistan is an authoritarian state. And until he can transform Uzbekistan into, first, a democratic state, and second, a compliant organ of the global AML mass-surveillance regime, it's okay for insiders like you that he is a global third class citizen. All of the poverty alleviation that being presumed innocent, instead treated like a suspect/criminal by your discriminatory policies, would bring about, will be conveniently dismissed by you.
miguelmota 6y ago
I always hear this argument. Can you provide a source comparing between how much money has been laundered worldwide using cash vs cryptocurrencies?
1ark 6y ago
Also some of the largest banks in Europe as evident in the last couple of years.
ur-whale 6y ago
> Yes, Bitcoin is excellent for money laundering. True or not, this argument is essentially orthogonal to Bitcoin's usefulness and success. As others have pointed out, there are many financial institutions / instruments that also fit the bill and that does not diminish their utility. To make the point maybe more salient: a moving vehicle can be used to kill a person, that doesn't mean cars should be eliminated.