6 ms·

I've lost my faith in all this Just int Time marketing stuff. I tried to buy a specific Toyota car in Brazil and they said that it would take 6 months to get me

by neves 6y ago

I've lost my faith in all this Just int Time marketing stuff. I tried to buy a specific Toyota car in Brazil and they said that it would take 6 months to get me one. I don't know which kind of legal bureaucracy created this, but I went with a Honda.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pulse7 6y ago
If you want to buy a >>specific<< configuration of any brand, you will have to wait for months - even for Honda...
CamperBob2 6y ago
More important to the consumer, JIT often means waiting weeks for replacement parts to be back-ordered several levels up the chain. It's a mistake to think there are no downsides to this methodology. Ultimately JIT manufacturing should be seen for what it is: central planning in action. Good for the central planners, certainly, but not for the end users.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  > Ultimately JIT manufacturing should be seen for what it is: central planning in action. Good for the central planners, certainly, but not for the end users. That's kind of funny. JIT is actually meant to be something closer to the market solution many others propose, as opposed to central planning. It's about identifying the local needs and ensuring they're met rather than trying to drive a top-down solution to the production problem.
- adingus 6y ago
  JIT doesn't mean you should carry no inventory or wait for orders. You should carry enough stock that you sell out of just in time for the replenishment to arrive.
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    The practical implementation of JIT production is to get rid of (expensive) warehouses and instead have rolling trucks on streets be the warehouse - you need the trucks anyway to transport stuff, but now you don't have to pay for the space as roads are owned by the public.
    - drewcoo 6y ago
      Sounds like the drug dealer model, where product is largely delivered to customers as they need it. Large stashes of drugs have additional potential downside, making the model more attractive than normal.
    - adingus 6y ago
      This may be the end game of JIT. But Deming and Shingo would have defined quality as "meeting the customers needs" and having them wait for parts does not accomplish that. Don't let the theoretical get in the way of the practical.
    - p_l 6y ago
      Capitalist race to the bottom in action, with JIT as enabler. IIRC, one of the classic elements of kanban was also that you could easily setup a buffer at any point in the system, by controlling the number of cards/boxes, with kanban regulating the flow. I.e. it's trivial to use TPS approaches to setup a "we need X amount of slack" and have its decentralised pull-based system appropriately adjust flow to maintain said slack. Unfortunately in steady state the extra cost of maintaining slack is seen as unnecessary drag on company performance, and since you can't depend on competition having to maintain similar amount of slack... why be less competetive?
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Unfortunately in steady state the extra cost of maintaining slack is seen as unnecessary drag on company performance One of the reasons for maintaining slack is that many processes have been repeatedly shown to be on-average more productive when managed with slack in normal operations than without, because the disruption that occurs when processes have no slack and irregular events occur is much more costly than a certain amount of slack. Right-sizing slack makes you more, not less, competitive. It's quite often not company performance concerns that drive out slack but the short-term performance of the unit at exactly the level the decision is made, and it's typically an eyes-open decision to gamble on unsustainable short-term gains lasting long enough to meet a short-term goal of the decision-maker (often, a bid to get a better job where they are no longer immediately responsible for the function being compromised). One of the biggest fallacies is there management decisions within a company are consistently, or even mostly, driven by interests of the company as a whole, rather than the individuals making decisions, who often face practical personal incentive structures (especially in terms of career advancement) in which seeking the broad interests of the company and it's shareholders are not optimal.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  Following JIT practices in production does not mean that one has to abolish spare parts storage. The only ones known to have massive problems with spare part supply issues is Tesla, which is a contributing factor in their high insurance rates (e.g. per https://electrek.co/2017/06/05/tesla-owners-insurance-rates/ https://electrek.co/2017/06/05/tesla-owners-insurance-rates/).
- Daho0n 6y ago
  That is not how JIT works (well maybe in some Americanized version but clearly not at Toyota). Specific orders are made with JIT but parts and cars are also pre-produced.
Daho0n 6y ago
Sounds like a Brazil or dealer problem to me. My new Toyota landed at my dealer on the 31/12-2020. With JIT production (I didn't buy a pre-produced model but picked parts and colours I wanted) and transport by land - sea - land it took way less than that. The Honda you bought was either pre-produced or you tried to buy a Toyota that was a brand new model and you wanted a specific setup.
Der_Einzige 6y ago
You got burned because honda is no longer reliable the way they used to be.

by neves 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

pulse7 6y ago

If you want to buy a >>specific<< configuration of any brand, you will have to wait for months - even for Honda...

CamperBob2 6y ago

More important to the consumer, JIT often means waiting weeks for replacement parts to be back-ordered several levels up the chain. It's a mistake to think there are no downsides to this methodology. Ultimately JIT manufacturing should be seen for what it is: central planning in action. Good for the central planners, certainly, but not for the end users.

Jtsummers 6y ago
> Ultimately JIT manufacturing should be seen for what it is: central planning in action. Good for the central planners, certainly, but not for the end users. That's kind of funny. JIT is actually meant to be something closer to the market solution many others propose, as opposed to central planning. It's about identifying the local needs and ensuring they're met rather than trying to drive a top-down solution to the production problem.
adingus 6y ago
JIT doesn't mean you should carry no inventory or wait for orders. You should carry enough stock that you sell out of just in time for the replenishment to arrive.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  The practical implementation of JIT production is to get rid of (expensive) warehouses and instead have rolling trucks on streets be the warehouse - you need the trucks anyway to transport stuff, but now you don't have to pay for the space as roads are owned by the public.
  - drewcoo 6y ago
    Sounds like the drug dealer model, where product is largely delivered to customers as they need it. Large stashes of drugs have additional potential downside, making the model more attractive than normal.
  - adingus 6y ago
    This may be the end game of JIT. But Deming and Shingo would have defined quality as "meeting the customers needs" and having them wait for parts does not accomplish that. Don't let the theoretical get in the way of the practical.
  - p_l 6y ago
    Capitalist race to the bottom in action, with JIT as enabler. IIRC, one of the classic elements of kanban was also that you could easily setup a buffer at any point in the system, by controlling the number of cards/boxes, with kanban regulating the flow. I.e. it's trivial to use TPS approaches to setup a "we need X amount of slack" and have its decentralised pull-based system appropriately adjust flow to maintain said slack. Unfortunately in steady state the extra cost of maintaining slack is seen as unnecessary drag on company performance, and since you can't depend on competition having to maintain similar amount of slack... why be less competetive?
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Unfortunately in steady state the extra cost of maintaining slack is seen as unnecessary drag on company performance One of the reasons for maintaining slack is that many processes have been repeatedly shown to be on-average more productive when managed with slack in normal operations than without, because the disruption that occurs when processes have no slack and irregular events occur is much more costly than a certain amount of slack. Right-sizing slack makes you more, not less, competitive. It's quite often not company performance concerns that drive out slack but the short-term performance of the unit at exactly the level the decision is made, and it's typically an eyes-open decision to gamble on unsustainable short-term gains lasting long enough to meet a short-term goal of the decision-maker (often, a bid to get a better job where they are no longer immediately responsible for the function being compromised). One of the biggest fallacies is there management decisions within a company are consistently, or even mostly, driven by interests of the company as a whole, rather than the individuals making decisions, who often face practical personal incentive structures (especially in terms of career advancement) in which seeking the broad interests of the company and it's shareholders are not optimal.
mschuster91 6y ago
Following JIT practices in production does not mean that one has to abolish spare parts storage. The only ones known to have massive problems with spare part supply issues is Tesla, which is a contributing factor in their high insurance rates (e.g. per https://electrek.co/2017/06/05/tesla-owners-insurance-rates/ https://electrek.co/2017/06/05/tesla-owners-insurance-rates/).
Daho0n 6y ago
That is not how JIT works (well maybe in some Americanized version but clearly not at Toyota). Specific orders are made with JIT but parts and cars are also pre-produced.

Daho0n 6y ago

Sounds like a Brazil or dealer problem to me. My new Toyota landed at my dealer on the 31/12-2020. With JIT production (I didn't buy a pre-produced model but picked parts and colours I wanted) and transport by land - sea - land it took way less than that. The Honda you bought was either pre-produced or you tried to buy a Toyota that was a brand new model and you wanted a specific setup.

Der_Einzige 6y ago

You got burned because honda is no longer reliable the way they used to be.