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> but I'd genuinely like clarity on why it's considered a matter of civil liberty to develop whatever you want and force Apple to distribute it on their store?

> but I'd genuinely like clarity on why it's considered a matter of civil liberty to develop whatever you want and force Apple to distribute it on their store? Ideally the store wouldn't exist, or at least it would be possible to bypass it. You supposedly bought the device, you should be able to run whatever you damn please on it.

Toutouxc 6y ago
Are you able to build your own programs on the dishwasher? On the vacuum cleaner? Is your car's ECU readily programmable? Because the way I see it and the way Apple markets the iDevices, they're not general computing devices. They're not computers in the Wozniak, IBM, Stallman, Torvalds sense. They're not DIY devices. The DIY tinkerer friendly computers exist and are sold as of today with various levels of DIY-ness -- and their user friendliness and security often suck because of their very nature. It's literally because of the openness and customizability that the Linux desktop experience sucks HARD for any kind of non-programmer professional usage. (And before you hit that reply button, i KNOW that YOUR i3 no-mouse vim emacs org-mode Arch setup works just fine. I'm not talking about you.) It's because of it, that your parents and grandparents' Windows boxes get viruses, because Windows apps regularly ship 200kB custom "installers" that download everything and spawn per-app daemons that handle software updates and everything is permitted and nothing makes sense. It's because of it, that sw piracy is rampant on Android, that the Google Play is full of shitty iOS app clones, fakes and outright malware, that end users can buy Android devices that are outdated on their launch day, that are full of LONG KNOWN vulnerabilities that the manufacturer doesn't give a shit about. And what you're saying is you want the manufacturer (Apple) introduce new, insecure functionality (app sideloading) into an appliance (iDevice) that was never supposed to have said functionality, because the appliance reminds you somehow of a general purpose computing device, despite the fact that neither Apple nor the (overwhelming) majority of the users consider it to be one.
- thekyle 6y ago
  > Are you able to build your own programs on the dishwasher? On the vacuum cleaner? Is your car's ECU readily programmable? I sure hope so. You should be able to do whatever you want with your own property. > It's because of it, that sw piracy is rampant on Android I don't see how Android app piracy is bad for consumers. If anything it seems to be a selling point to many in low income regions. > Google Play is full of shitty iOS app clones, fakes and outright malware Yes indeed. Just goes to show that walled gardens are not necessarily an effective strategy for stopping malware. The Apple App Store has had it's own fair share of malware also. > Android devices that are outdated on their launch day Because makers of appliances (such as those you mentioned in the beginning) are well know to always provide software updates with the latest security patches for many years (No, they aren't).
- Nullabillity 6y ago
  > Are you able to build your own programs on the dishwasher? On the vacuum cleaner? Is your car's ECU readily programmable? My dishwasher wasn't marketed as a platform for third-party wash cycles, the way iOS is. But I don't see how a customizable dishwasher wouldn't be strictly better than what we have at the moment. On the other hand, my dishwasher doesn't try to limit the brand of soap that I use.
johnisgood 6y ago
> You supposedly bought the device, you should be able to run whatever you damn please on it. I do not condone any of their practices, and I dislike Apple, but... before you bought the device, you knew that you would not be able to run whatever you damn please on it, right? If so, why did you buy it? If not, can you not return it? In any case, we, the people, should buy products that allow us to do just that. I know that we do not have a huge selection of these devices, in all fairness. They all suck in some way or another, and we do need a phone...
- Nullabillity 6y ago
  > before you bought the device, you knew that you would not be able to run whatever you damn please on it, right? If so, why did you buy it? If not, can you not return it? Maybe you didn't realize the issue at the time. Maybe you got it as a gift (from your parents, for example). Maybe the choice seemed more viable back then, before the noose tightened (jailbreaking, safetynet, etc). Maybe you didn't really have a choice (for example, here in Sweden, BankID is pretty much mandatory at this point). We don't let grocery stores sell rotten food, and then blame the people who buy it.
  - johnisgood 6y ago
    I do not think that buying rotten food is the way to fight against the grocery store selling it. Do you believe it to be a good strategy? What do you think about BankID being mandatory?
    - Nullabillity 6y ago
      > I do not think that buying rotten food is the way to fight against the grocery store selling it. Do you believe it to be a good strategy? I have never bought an Apple device, but have been forced by circumstances to use them in the past. But as I said, people make mistakes, and circumstances change. As is perhaps more relevant to me, Android isn't looking all that much better these days. You do need to eat. And it looks like soon rotten food will be all that is available. > What do you think about BankID being mandatory? I hate it, but I can't really do much about it. Uninstalling it would mean losing access to: 1. All bank accounts 2. All insurance accounts 3. Filing my tax returns 4. Union account 5. Bostadsrättsförening account (think: home owners' association for appartment) 6. Mobile plan management 7. ... I don't think that's a reasonable ask for the "privilege" of being able to use whatever damn phone you please. There is finally some talk of building alternatives for it, but most of it seems to go in the direction of OAuth: they all fundamentally verify you the same way, and it's up to each service provider to support each of them separately. Expected end result for the citizen.. instead of needing a device that runs BankID, you need one in the intersection of BankID, Freja eID+, and whatever else crops up.

Toutouxc 6y ago

Are you able to build your own programs on the dishwasher? On the vacuum cleaner? Is your car's ECU readily programmable? Because the way I see it and the way Apple markets the iDevices, they're not general computing devices. They're not computers in the Wozniak, IBM, Stallman, Torvalds sense. They're not DIY devices. The DIY tinkerer friendly computers exist and are sold as of today with various levels of DIY-ness -- and their user friendliness and security often suck because of their very nature. It's literally because of the openness and customizability that the Linux desktop experience sucks HARD for any kind of non-programmer professional usage. (And before you hit that reply button, i KNOW that YOUR i3 no-mouse vim emacs org-mode Arch setup works just fine. I'm not talking about you.) It's because of it, that your parents and grandparents' Windows boxes get viruses, because Windows apps regularly ship 200kB custom "installers" that download everything and spawn per-app daemons that handle software updates and everything is permitted and nothing makes sense. It's because of it, that sw piracy is rampant on Android, that the Google Play is full of shitty iOS app clones, fakes and outright malware, that end users can buy Android devices that are outdated on their launch day, that are full of LONG KNOWN vulnerabilities that the manufacturer doesn't give a shit about. And what you're saying is you want the manufacturer (Apple) introduce new, insecure functionality (app sideloading) into an appliance (iDevice) that was never supposed to have said functionality, because the appliance reminds you somehow of a general purpose computing device, despite the fact that neither Apple nor the (overwhelming) majority of the users consider it to be one.

thekyle 6y ago
> Are you able to build your own programs on the dishwasher? On the vacuum cleaner? Is your car's ECU readily programmable? I sure hope so. You should be able to do whatever you want with your own property. > It's because of it, that sw piracy is rampant on Android I don't see how Android app piracy is bad for consumers. If anything it seems to be a selling point to many in low income regions. > Google Play is full of shitty iOS app clones, fakes and outright malware Yes indeed. Just goes to show that walled gardens are not necessarily an effective strategy for stopping malware. The Apple App Store has had it's own fair share of malware also. > Android devices that are outdated on their launch day Because makers of appliances (such as those you mentioned in the beginning) are well know to always provide software updates with the latest security patches for many years (No, they aren't).
Nullabillity 6y ago
> Are you able to build your own programs on the dishwasher? On the vacuum cleaner? Is your car's ECU readily programmable? My dishwasher wasn't marketed as a platform for third-party wash cycles, the way iOS is. But I don't see how a customizable dishwasher wouldn't be strictly better than what we have at the moment. On the other hand, my dishwasher doesn't try to limit the brand of soap that I use.

johnisgood 6y ago

> You supposedly bought the device, you should be able to run whatever you damn please on it. I do not condone any of their practices, and I dislike Apple, but... before you bought the device, you knew that you would not be able to run whatever you damn please on it, right? If so, why did you buy it? If not, can you not return it? In any case, we, the people, should buy products that allow us to do just that. I know that we do not have a huge selection of these devices, in all fairness. They all suck in some way or another, and we do need a phone...

Nullabillity 6y ago
> before you bought the device, you knew that you would not be able to run whatever you damn please on it, right? If so, why did you buy it? If not, can you not return it? Maybe you didn't realize the issue at the time. Maybe you got it as a gift (from your parents, for example). Maybe the choice seemed more viable back then, before the noose tightened (jailbreaking, safetynet, etc). Maybe you didn't really have a choice (for example, here in Sweden, BankID is pretty much mandatory at this point). We don't let grocery stores sell rotten food, and then blame the people who buy it.
- johnisgood 6y ago
  I do not think that buying rotten food is the way to fight against the grocery store selling it. Do you believe it to be a good strategy? What do you think about BankID being mandatory?
  - Nullabillity 6y ago
    > I do not think that buying rotten food is the way to fight against the grocery store selling it. Do you believe it to be a good strategy? I have never bought an Apple device, but have been forced by circumstances to use them in the past. But as I said, people make mistakes, and circumstances change. As is perhaps more relevant to me, Android isn't looking all that much better these days. You do need to eat. And it looks like soon rotten food will be all that is available. > What do you think about BankID being mandatory? I hate it, but I can't really do much about it. Uninstalling it would mean losing access to: 1. All bank accounts 2. All insurance accounts 3. Filing my tax returns 4. Union account 5. Bostadsrättsförening account (think: home owners' association for appartment) 6. Mobile plan management 7. ... I don't think that's a reasonable ask for the "privilege" of being able to use whatever damn phone you please. There is finally some talk of building alternatives for it, but most of it seems to go in the direction of OAuth: they all fundamentally verify you the same way, and it's up to each service provider to support each of them separately. Expected end result for the citizen.. instead of needing a device that runs BankID, you need one in the intersection of BankID, Freja eID+, and whatever else crops up.