7 ms·

Another French Study Looks Into The Use of Nicotine Against Covid-19

boomboomsubban 6y ago
Pure guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if fewer smokers went to the hospital for minor cases. Most of the common symptoms for the illness are things smokers regularly deal with like a loss of taste and smell, congestion, coughing, and breathing difficulties. So unless things are pretty bad, being sick might seem better than getting hospitalized and going through withdrawal. I hope whatever wide scale antibody test they do ask if the person smokes as well.
- kolinko 6y ago
  People don’t get hospitalised because of just a loss of smell.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    I do not understand why you think my post said they did.
- sabellito 6y ago
  That doesn't really make sense. Whatever are a person's current indicators on the symptoms you just listed, if they were to worsen during this pandemic, people would probably consider going to the hospital. Apart from perhaps coughing, smokers don't "regularly deal" with any of that. Smokers don't have a "sudden loss of sense of smell".
  - BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
    > Smokers don't have a "sudden loss of sense of smell". Right. They have a _persistent_ loss of sense of smell. Regaining sense of smell is one of the major changes that ex-smokers notice after quitting. This is very widely known. > Apart from perhaps coughing, smokers don't "regularly deal" with any of that. Google "smoker sense of smell" and "smoker sense of taste" and "smoker shortness of breath".
    - watwut 6y ago
      I never heard about that and definitely did not noticed anything like that when I stopped smoking.
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        How long and heavy you smoked probably matters, and if you aren't expecting it you may not notice your sense of smell and taste slowly getting sharper over a few months. Personally, quitting smoking led me to eat far less fast food, as I noticed how terrible much of it tasted.
        watwut 6y ago
        Parent claimed this: Regaining sense of smell is one of the major changes that ex-smokers notice after quitting. Slow change over course of moths that you don't notice unless you know about it is hardly that.
        boomboomsubban 6y ago
        Major changes that happen gradually are incredibly hard to notice if you aren't expecting them, and even if you did notice you might just think it's because you got over a cold or spring is here or similar.
        watwut 6y ago
        "ajor changes that ex-smokers notice after quitting" is something completely different then "Major changes [...] incredibly hard to notice". If it is hard to notice, then it can't be major thing ex-smokers notice.
        boomboomsubban 6y ago
        Or many ex-smokers were expecting them so did notice the change. I can't tell if you just think the poster should have qualified that not every smoker notices it or if you think it doesn't exist because you didn't notice it.
helsinki 6y ago
As someone who has been wearing nicotine patches every day for several years, the thought of the general population buying up my life source is terrifying. I now have a 400 day supply arriving tomorrow.
- spacehome 6y ago
  That’s certainly an interesting hobby.
  - helsinki 6y ago
    feelsgoodman.jpg
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
  > As someone who has been wearing nicotine patches every day for several years I think you're the first person I've encountered who desires to use nicotine patches indefinitely. Isn't the idea usually to gradually wean off of them instead of just continuing to use them forever?
  - ficklepickle 6y ago
    To be fair, he didn't say he desires to use them. Just that he does. There can be many reasons why it is not a good time to discontinue nicotine. For example, if one is at a risk of returning to cigarettes. In that case, it is a much safer alternative. Myself, I vaporise moderate amounts of nicotine. It is not part of my identity, it just got me off cigarettes. I have no plans to reduce or discontinue my usage at this time. A stable mental state and staying off cigarettes is more important right now. Abstinence is a noble goal, but it is not always practical. In those cases, reducing the harm is desirable.
brianjunyinchan 6y ago
> The daily smokers rate amongst COVID-19 patients was at 5.3%, whilst amongst the general population, the daily smokers rate was at 25.4%. Not to be macabre, but could it potentially be that more smokers die before reaching the older age range of most COVID hospitalizations?
- function_seven 6y ago
  The first paragraph says: > The researchers had estimated the rates of daily current smokers among COVID-19-infected patients and compared them to the rates of daily current smokers within the general French population, after controlling the data for sex and age. So, assuming they correctly controlled for age, then no, it’s not “anti-survivorship” bias. (“Casualty bias”?)
  - brianjunyinchan 6y ago
    Ah, missed that, thanks. Even more interesting then!
  - ipsum2 6y ago
    There could still be survivorship bias, e.g. the people who don't die from smoking have stronger lungs, and aren't affected as much by covid.
    - kolinko 6y ago
      This would be true if the outcome of smoking was binary and quick (i.e. unless you have strong lungs you die from smoking soon, otherwise your lungs remain stronger than the rest of population until natural death). That’s not a pattern with smoking.
bird_monster 6y ago
> The study in question will be randomized, national and multi-center, carried out double-blind, and should involve teams from Assistance Publique – Hôpitaux de Paris, Sorbonne University and Inserm. It is expected to include approximately 1,633 medical and non-medical caregivers, working in a health establishment, non-smokers (or former smokers who have quit smoking for more than 12 months), without a history of infection with COVID-19, and working with patients (with or without the virus). > The researchers will administer nicotine patches to some of the participants for a period of 4 to 5 months, and then carry out a follow-up for 6 to 7 months. Of course, it is still too early to conclude exactly how nicotine interacts with the coronavirus. However, if nicotine is indeed confirmed as a protective factor, NRTs including e-cigarettes could play a pivotal role in controlling this pandemic. Very curious to see how this goes. I would also love to see information as to why nicotine works this way, and if there are any non-nicotine options that have similar effects? Interesting stuff none the less.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  A quick literature search shows ample evidence of both immune suppressing and immune promoting effects of nicotine. I didn’t see something that was a clear consensus, but it seemed like nicotine decidedly modulates the immune system. It seems whatever effects it has might do good things for covid. Nicotine isn’t evil, and even not particularly addictive when not delivered via burning leaves. (components in smoke change how much enters the brain)
  - carlmr 6y ago
    I've been wondering about this anyway. Isn't the covid that requires hospitalization due to an overreaction of the immune system? Maybe suppressing the immune system slightly is what helps here.
    - colechristensen 6y ago
      One of the primary treatments is a big dose of powerful steroids to suppress the immune response.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Bud 6y ago
Typo in the headline you wrote: it's "preventative", not "preventiative".
gfody 6y ago
smokers more effectively social distance, because people can smell when they’re too close
- tannhaeuser 6y ago
  OTOH, smokers offer cigarettes and lights to each other, and arguably congregate for consumption and have small-talks more than non-smokers given smoking starts with peer group pressure effects, etc.
reilly3000 6y ago
There are oral nicotine products that are widely available. You can get smoking cessation lozenges at drug stores, but there are also nicotine pouches sold alongside cigarettes and snus. Some use tobacco nicotine, but many are derived from nightshade vegetables such as tomatoes. If you were considering adding nicotine into your life, this would probably be the safest choice for the throat and lungs. Receding gums and nicotine addiction are very likely consequences as well as risk to the cardiovascular system; proceed with caution. As a Covid-19 therapy oral nicotine would be easy to scale up and distribute. It doesn't take long to turn around a crop of eggplant or tomatoes, and the processing seems simple enough. Effective dosing, safety and the political difficulties of advocating for safe and limited use nicotine seem to be something that would make any public health professional's head spin.
- ipsum2 6y ago
  Smoking cessation lozenges are kinda gross, they mimic the taste of smoking.
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    The point is to be unappealing otherwise there will be no cessation.
    - ipsum2 6y ago
      Right, but it would be bad to use lozenges if you didn't smoke before, which was the parent's point.
dukeofdoom 6y ago
When “Blowing Smoke Up Your Ass” Was Much More Than Just A Saying https://allthatsinteresting.com/blowing-smoke-up-your-ass https://allthatsinteresting.com/blowing-smoke-up-your-ass
sgtnoodle 6y ago
Lol, I've been saying this since July. Severe covid is due to organ inflammation from overaggressive immune system response, and nicotine is an immune system suppressant. The one episode of Dr. House where is was actually sarcoidosis (a systemic inflammatory disease), the patient didn't have any symptoms because of his use of chewing tobacco to manage his weight for wrestling.
- adw 6y ago
  You'd probably be interested in https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/PIIS2665-9913(20)30309-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/PIIS2665-9... This paper points out that patients on infliximab (trade name Remicade: immune system modulator used by people with chronic autoimmune diseases, particularly IBD and rheumatoid arthritis) don't seem to be at elevated risk of severe COVID – which is surprising because these are powerful immune system suppressants.
  - sgtnoodle 6y ago
    I had to start taking immunosuppressants earlier this year, and after reading up on it I've convinced myself that it's an effective treatment for severe covid. As it happened, I essentially had a severe covid experience, but for auto-immune/ideopathic reasons. It's like my body had 2020 FOMO.
- dmix 6y ago
  All diseases cause inflammation, it's the bodies basic response to everything, like cuts and whatnot. That said, this may also be why they figured out certain steroids helped COVID patients by reducing this hyper reaction. I rememebr reading some steroids became a frontline treatment at some point mid way through the year at certain medical centers. But any pathologist would have known immediately about the risks of inflammation and that being the auto-response. It would have been evaluated is what I'm assuming. I have colitis which similarly causes artificial immune response in the digestive tract and they used steroids to help reduce the inflammation which was causing other serious problems in my body. But only during a very serious episode. Other lighter approaches are available to keep it under control. Note: I'm not a medical expert at all and could be talking out of my ass. Just basing this on personal experience and some personal reading into pathology.
lolc 6y ago
> The researchers will administer nicotine patches to some of the participants for a period of 4 to 5 months, Wow. Hooking participants on nicotine for research seems like an extreme measure to research this. I know that nicotine-patches cannot be compared to cigarette-hits in addictiveness. But still, I take it as given that a few participants will start to smoke tobacco after this. Since the effect promises to be really big though, I'll accept the argument that it's worth to study it. I just wonder how we'll deal with a positive result. Will the at-risk population actually be advised to take nicotine preventatively?
ficklepickle 6y ago
Same with meth. Anecdotally, apparently users are resistant to respiratory viruses. The expected covid outbreak on the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver never materialized, despite widespread lack of masks and social distancing . I can't imagine anyone is too eager to do that study. If I was covid health care worker, I'd probably be on a low dose of amphetamines right now. Purely as prophylaxis, of course.
- nubiius 6y ago
  Great, but meth isn't the drug of choice for the DTES so how is this relevant?

Pure guess, but I wouldn't be surprised if fewer smokers went to the hospital for minor cases. Most of the common symptoms for the illness are things smokers regularly deal with like a loss of taste and smell, congestion, coughing, and breathing difficulties. So unless things are pretty bad, being sick might seem better than getting hospitalized and going through withdrawal. I hope whatever wide scale antibody test they do ask if the person smokes as well.

kolinko 6y ago
People don’t get hospitalised because of just a loss of smell.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  I do not understand why you think my post said they did.
sabellito 6y ago
That doesn't really make sense. Whatever are a person's current indicators on the symptoms you just listed, if they were to worsen during this pandemic, people would probably consider going to the hospital. Apart from perhaps coughing, smokers don't "regularly deal" with any of that. Smokers don't have a "sudden loss of sense of smell".
- BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
  > Smokers don't have a "sudden loss of sense of smell". Right. They have a _persistent_ loss of sense of smell. Regaining sense of smell is one of the major changes that ex-smokers notice after quitting. This is very widely known. > Apart from perhaps coughing, smokers don't "regularly deal" with any of that. Google "smoker sense of smell" and "smoker sense of taste" and "smoker shortness of breath".
  - watwut 6y ago
    I never heard about that and definitely did not noticed anything like that when I stopped smoking.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      How long and heavy you smoked probably matters, and if you aren't expecting it you may not notice your sense of smell and taste slowly getting sharper over a few months. Personally, quitting smoking led me to eat far less fast food, as I noticed how terrible much of it tasted.
      - watwut 6y ago
        Parent claimed this: Regaining sense of smell is one of the major changes that ex-smokers notice after quitting. Slow change over course of moths that you don't notice unless you know about it is hardly that.
        boomboomsubban 6y ago
        Major changes that happen gradually are incredibly hard to notice if you aren't expecting them, and even if you did notice you might just think it's because you got over a cold or spring is here or similar.
        watwut 6y ago
        "ajor changes that ex-smokers notice after quitting" is something completely different then "Major changes [...] incredibly hard to notice". If it is hard to notice, then it can't be major thing ex-smokers notice.
        boomboomsubban 6y ago
        Or many ex-smokers were expecting them so did notice the change. I can't tell if you just think the poster should have qualified that not every smoker notices it or if you think it doesn't exist because you didn't notice it.

helsinki 6y ago

As someone who has been wearing nicotine patches every day for several years, the thought of the general population buying up my life source is terrifying. I now have a 400 day supply arriving tomorrow.

spacehome 6y ago
That’s certainly an interesting hobby.
- helsinki 6y ago
  feelsgoodman.jpg
BugsJustFindMe 6y ago
> As someone who has been wearing nicotine patches every day for several years I think you're the first person I've encountered who desires to use nicotine patches indefinitely. Isn't the idea usually to gradually wean off of them instead of just continuing to use them forever?
- ficklepickle 6y ago
  To be fair, he didn't say he desires to use them. Just that he does. There can be many reasons why it is not a good time to discontinue nicotine. For example, if one is at a risk of returning to cigarettes. In that case, it is a much safer alternative. Myself, I vaporise moderate amounts of nicotine. It is not part of my identity, it just got me off cigarettes. I have no plans to reduce or discontinue my usage at this time. A stable mental state and staying off cigarettes is more important right now. Abstinence is a noble goal, but it is not always practical. In those cases, reducing the harm is desirable.

brianjunyinchan 6y ago

> The daily smokers rate amongst COVID-19 patients was at 5.3%, whilst amongst the general population, the daily smokers rate was at 25.4%. Not to be macabre, but could it potentially be that more smokers die before reaching the older age range of most COVID hospitalizations?

function_seven 6y ago
The first paragraph says: > The researchers had estimated the rates of daily current smokers among COVID-19-infected patients and compared them to the rates of daily current smokers within the general French population, after controlling the data for sex and age. So, assuming they correctly controlled for age, then no, it’s not “anti-survivorship” bias. (“Casualty bias”?)
- brianjunyinchan 6y ago
  Ah, missed that, thanks. Even more interesting then!
- ipsum2 6y ago
  There could still be survivorship bias, e.g. the people who don't die from smoking have stronger lungs, and aren't affected as much by covid.
  - kolinko 6y ago
    This would be true if the outcome of smoking was binary and quick (i.e. unless you have strong lungs you die from smoking soon, otherwise your lungs remain stronger than the rest of population until natural death). That’s not a pattern with smoking.

bird_monster 6y ago

> The study in question will be randomized, national and multi-center, carried out double-blind, and should involve teams from Assistance Publique – Hôpitaux de Paris, Sorbonne University and Inserm. It is expected to include approximately 1,633 medical and non-medical caregivers, working in a health establishment, non-smokers (or former smokers who have quit smoking for more than 12 months), without a history of infection with COVID-19, and working with patients (with or without the virus). > The researchers will administer nicotine patches to some of the participants for a period of 4 to 5 months, and then carry out a follow-up for 6 to 7 months. Of course, it is still too early to conclude exactly how nicotine interacts with the coronavirus. However, if nicotine is indeed confirmed as a protective factor, NRTs including e-cigarettes could play a pivotal role in controlling this pandemic. Very curious to see how this goes. I would also love to see information as to why nicotine works this way, and if there are any non-nicotine options that have similar effects? Interesting stuff none the less.

colechristensen 6y ago
A quick literature search shows ample evidence of both immune suppressing and immune promoting effects of nicotine. I didn’t see something that was a clear consensus, but it seemed like nicotine decidedly modulates the immune system. It seems whatever effects it has might do good things for covid. Nicotine isn’t evil, and even not particularly addictive when not delivered via burning leaves. (components in smoke change how much enters the brain)
- carlmr 6y ago
  I've been wondering about this anyway. Isn't the covid that requires hospitalization due to an overreaction of the immune system? Maybe suppressing the immune system slightly is what helps here.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    One of the primary treatments is a big dose of powerful steroids to suppress the immune response.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Bud 6y ago

Typo in the headline you wrote: it's "preventative", not "preventiative".

gfody 6y ago

smokers more effectively social distance, because people can smell when they’re too close

tannhaeuser 6y ago
OTOH, smokers offer cigarettes and lights to each other, and arguably congregate for consumption and have small-talks more than non-smokers given smoking starts with peer group pressure effects, etc.

reilly3000 6y ago

There are oral nicotine products that are widely available. You can get smoking cessation lozenges at drug stores, but there are also nicotine pouches sold alongside cigarettes and snus. Some use tobacco nicotine, but many are derived from nightshade vegetables such as tomatoes. If you were considering adding nicotine into your life, this would probably be the safest choice for the throat and lungs. Receding gums and nicotine addiction are very likely consequences as well as risk to the cardiovascular system; proceed with caution. As a Covid-19 therapy oral nicotine would be easy to scale up and distribute. It doesn't take long to turn around a crop of eggplant or tomatoes, and the processing seems simple enough. Effective dosing, safety and the political difficulties of advocating for safe and limited use nicotine seem to be something that would make any public health professional's head spin.

ipsum2 6y ago
Smoking cessation lozenges are kinda gross, they mimic the taste of smoking.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  The point is to be unappealing otherwise there will be no cessation.
  - ipsum2 6y ago
    Right, but it would be bad to use lozenges if you didn't smoke before, which was the parent's point.

dukeofdoom 6y ago

When “Blowing Smoke Up Your Ass” Was Much More Than Just A Saying https://allthatsinteresting.com/blowing-smoke-up-your-ass https://allthatsinteresting.com/blowing-smoke-up-your-ass

sgtnoodle 6y ago

Lol, I've been saying this since July. Severe covid is due to organ inflammation from overaggressive immune system response, and nicotine is an immune system suppressant. The one episode of Dr. House where is was actually sarcoidosis (a systemic inflammatory disease), the patient didn't have any symptoms because of his use of chewing tobacco to manage his weight for wrestling.

adw 6y ago
You'd probably be interested in https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/PIIS2665-9913(20)30309-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanrhe/article/PIIS2665-9... This paper points out that patients on infliximab (trade name Remicade: immune system modulator used by people with chronic autoimmune diseases, particularly IBD and rheumatoid arthritis) don't seem to be at elevated risk of severe COVID – which is surprising because these are powerful immune system suppressants.
- sgtnoodle 6y ago
  I had to start taking immunosuppressants earlier this year, and after reading up on it I've convinced myself that it's an effective treatment for severe covid. As it happened, I essentially had a severe covid experience, but for auto-immune/ideopathic reasons. It's like my body had 2020 FOMO.
dmix 6y ago
All diseases cause inflammation, it's the bodies basic response to everything, like cuts and whatnot. That said, this may also be why they figured out certain steroids helped COVID patients by reducing this hyper reaction. I rememebr reading some steroids became a frontline treatment at some point mid way through the year at certain medical centers. But any pathologist would have known immediately about the risks of inflammation and that being the auto-response. It would have been evaluated is what I'm assuming. I have colitis which similarly causes artificial immune response in the digestive tract and they used steroids to help reduce the inflammation which was causing other serious problems in my body. But only during a very serious episode. Other lighter approaches are available to keep it under control. Note: I'm not a medical expert at all and could be talking out of my ass. Just basing this on personal experience and some personal reading into pathology.

lolc 6y ago

> The researchers will administer nicotine patches to some of the participants for a period of 4 to 5 months, Wow. Hooking participants on nicotine for research seems like an extreme measure to research this. I know that nicotine-patches cannot be compared to cigarette-hits in addictiveness. But still, I take it as given that a few participants will start to smoke tobacco after this. Since the effect promises to be really big though, I'll accept the argument that it's worth to study it. I just wonder how we'll deal with a positive result. Will the at-risk population actually be advised to take nicotine preventatively?

ficklepickle 6y ago

Same with meth. Anecdotally, apparently users are resistant to respiratory viruses. The expected covid outbreak on the Downtown Eastside of Vancouver never materialized, despite widespread lack of masks and social distancing . I can't imagine anyone is too eager to do that study. If I was covid health care worker, I'd probably be on a low dose of amphetamines right now. Purely as prophylaxis, of course.

nubiius 6y ago
Great, but meth isn't the drug of choice for the DTES so how is this relevant?