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Why Chimpanzees Don’t Hold Elections: The Power of Social Reality

13 points by apsec112 6y ago

eesmith 6y ago
It appears to be full of analogies to other species based on a surface level/pop cultural understanding. Compare this quote from the link: > Chimps, our closest living cousins, have human-like brains that can accomplish each of the Five Cs. However, they don’t have social reality. When chimps select a leader, they don’t vote by making marks on smushed bits of dead trees like we do. They follow the alpha male who will threaten or kill any others who challenge him. with Jane Goodall's study of the chimpanzees, quoting https://news.janegoodall.org/2018/07/10/top-bottom-chimpanzee-social-hierarchy-amazing/ https://news.janegoodall.org/2018/07/10/top-bottom-chimpanze... : > chimpanzees, like us, have an incredibly complex social structure. And also like humans, that social structure involves friends, enemies, and battles for power. ... The highest-ranking chimpanzee in a group is the alpha-male. ... Take two of the alpha males observed in Gombe, Frodo and Freud, for instance. Though they were brothers, each chimp had a very different leadership style. While Freud maintained control through fostering strong alliances and grooming those he wanted to keep under his command, Frodo relied heavily on aggression and brute strength. Also, bonobos are as close to humans as chimpanzees, so looking only to chimpanzees as a homology to human behavior is wrong. > "Songbirds learn their songs from adult tutors." and from their environment. Here's a bird singing the Nokia ring-tone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuZKeWi0avw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuZKeWi0avw . And no discussion of whale songs. Quoting https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whale-songs-undergo-cultural-revolutions-180970880/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whale-songs-underg... : "humpback whales are highly sophisticated creatures. Their ability to transmit songs, not just within populations, but also between them, “is cultural transmission on a scale comparable to what we find in people,” according to Allen. Having a better understand of what drives cultural and social learning in whales could, therefore, help scientists gain new insight into why these traits have evolved with unparalleled complexity in humans." Finally, the intro is: "Humans are the only animals who can simply make things up, agree on them as a group, and they become real." What experiments have been done to test that? Because I've seen any number of statements of the sort "Humans are the only animals who ...", only to find that other animals are, for example, tool users.
- wolfretcrap 6y ago
  What prevents a group of chimpanzee to kill their Alfa leader? Alfa leader could be the most powerful chimp but can he be stronger than 2 or 3 chimps attacking simultaneously?
  - eesmith 6y ago
    The page I linked to points out that it's not simply 2-3 vs. 1: > Below the alpha are several other males with whom the alpha may have complicated relationships. The alpha will have friends in his coalition, who helped him gain control and are helping him maintain power. These could be playmates from his juvenile years, brothers, or new friends eager to increase their own social status through friendly contact with the alpha male. However, there also maybe be a chimpanzee or a coalition of chimpanzees who want to overthrow the alpha and install a new chimpanzee in his place. Rather like humans, yes?
type0 6y ago
Sadly it didn't explain why they don't hold elections, it somewhat talks about abstraction but never explores the concept. The "compression" (whatever that is) described in the article with the neuron analogy isn't limited to humans. Then I don't even understand how a psychologists can misrepresent neuronal communication in such a terrible way. > Your brain compresses away the physical differences of these objects and in the process, you understand that they have a similar function. That's abstraction again. In many animals the compression is probably even stronger, the tiger looks on the elephant with a human riding on top and still approximates it to a somewhat strange looking elephant, because it's good enough, for a tiger it's better to focus all the attention on gazelles instead and succeed in hunting.
- toss1 6y ago
  Exactly! The "Compression" mentioned in the article is actually an extremely deep, and old and pervasive system common to all animals. There are too many such filtering and sorting functions at everything from the neuron-neuron level up to different central nervous system nodes and sub-organs filtering and directing the attention of various sensors. E.g., there is a center completely away from the visual cortex that independently controls the attention and direction of the eyes on a millisecond basis. It still functions in people who are corticaly blind (damaged visual cortex), and creates interesting phenomena. It does seem that the author is talking more about abstraction, and never really makes the connection trumpeted in the headline, so a bit disappointing.

13 points by apsec112 6y ago

It appears to be full of analogies to other species based on a surface level/pop cultural understanding. Compare this quote from the link: > Chimps, our closest living cousins, have human-like brains that can accomplish each of the Five Cs. However, they don’t have social reality. When chimps select a leader, they don’t vote by making marks on smushed bits of dead trees like we do. They follow the alpha male who will threaten or kill any others who challenge him. with Jane Goodall's study of the chimpanzees, quoting https://news.janegoodall.org/2018/07/10/top-bottom-chimpanzee-social-hierarchy-amazing/ https://news.janegoodall.org/2018/07/10/top-bottom-chimpanze... : > chimpanzees, like us, have an incredibly complex social structure. And also like humans, that social structure involves friends, enemies, and battles for power. ... The highest-ranking chimpanzee in a group is the alpha-male. ... Take two of the alpha males observed in Gombe, Frodo and Freud, for instance. Though they were brothers, each chimp had a very different leadership style. While Freud maintained control through fostering strong alliances and grooming those he wanted to keep under his command, Frodo relied heavily on aggression and brute strength. Also, bonobos are as close to humans as chimpanzees, so looking only to chimpanzees as a homology to human behavior is wrong. > "Songbirds learn their songs from adult tutors." and from their environment. Here's a bird singing the Nokia ring-tone - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuZKeWi0avw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuZKeWi0avw . And no discussion of whale songs. Quoting https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whale-songs-undergo-cultural-revolutions-180970880/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/whale-songs-underg... : "humpback whales are highly sophisticated creatures. Their ability to transmit songs, not just within populations, but also between them, “is cultural transmission on a scale comparable to what we find in people,” according to Allen. Having a better understand of what drives cultural and social learning in whales could, therefore, help scientists gain new insight into why these traits have evolved with unparalleled complexity in humans." Finally, the intro is: "Humans are the only animals who can simply make things up, agree on them as a group, and they become real." What experiments have been done to test that? Because I've seen any number of statements of the sort "Humans are the only animals who ...", only to find that other animals are, for example, tool users.

wolfretcrap 6y ago
What prevents a group of chimpanzee to kill their Alfa leader? Alfa leader could be the most powerful chimp but can he be stronger than 2 or 3 chimps attacking simultaneously?
- eesmith 6y ago
  The page I linked to points out that it's not simply 2-3 vs. 1: > Below the alpha are several other males with whom the alpha may have complicated relationships. The alpha will have friends in his coalition, who helped him gain control and are helping him maintain power. These could be playmates from his juvenile years, brothers, or new friends eager to increase their own social status through friendly contact with the alpha male. However, there also maybe be a chimpanzee or a coalition of chimpanzees who want to overthrow the alpha and install a new chimpanzee in his place. Rather like humans, yes?

type0 6y ago

Sadly it didn't explain why they don't hold elections, it somewhat talks about abstraction but never explores the concept. The "compression" (whatever that is) described in the article with the neuron analogy isn't limited to humans. Then I don't even understand how a psychologists can misrepresent neuronal communication in such a terrible way. > Your brain compresses away the physical differences of these objects and in the process, you understand that they have a similar function. That's abstraction again. In many animals the compression is probably even stronger, the tiger looks on the elephant with a human riding on top and still approximates it to a somewhat strange looking elephant, because it's good enough, for a tiger it's better to focus all the attention on gazelles instead and succeed in hunting.

toss1 6y ago
Exactly! The "Compression" mentioned in the article is actually an extremely deep, and old and pervasive system common to all animals. There are too many such filtering and sorting functions at everything from the neuron-neuron level up to different central nervous system nodes and sub-organs filtering and directing the attention of various sensors. E.g., there is a center completely away from the visual cortex that independently controls the attention and direction of the eyes on a millisecond basis. It still functions in people who are corticaly blind (damaged visual cortex), and creates interesting phenomena. It does seem that the author is talking more about abstraction, and never really makes the connection trumpeted in the headline, so a bit disappointing.