6 ms·

Baseline power is less of an issue for EVs, since they a) have their own energy storage built in, and b) generally just run ~ 1 hour a day, making it pretty eas

Baseline power is less of an issue for EVs, since they a) have their own energy storage built in, and b) generally just run ~ 1 hour a day, making it pretty easy to come up with schemes to shift demand around. Agree the trend of decommissioning nuclear plants is counterproductive for other reasons though.

tpmx 6y ago
I guess I'm mostly worried about the wind power trend. a) Politicians love them b) Politicians really don't understand power grids c) They don't seem to be that "green", after all, if you consider the life span and the co2 emissions from the concrete manufacturing.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  If the next-best alternative on point (c) was nuclear, nuclear is probably less polluting. But since nuclear is off the table, since people react really poorly to rare events that cause towns to be uninhabitable, the next-best for (c) is going to be natural gas or another fossil source. I'll take wind any day.
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    I read an essay talking about another field where the authors conclusions apply to nuclear vs wind and solar. He participated in research on low cost rocket designs. His take away was the actual design wasn't as important as building more rockets rather than less. With solar you make panels by the 100 million. Wind turbines by the tens of thousand. Nuclear by the low digits. Per year.
- rossjudson 6y ago
  Not green? Really? Anything here change your mind: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/03/wind-energys-carbon-footprint/ https://www.factcheck.org/2018/03/wind-energys-carbon-footpr...
  - sremani 6y ago
    Wind is dynamic generation - that means there is a likelihood within the system where there is a backup generation when wind is not blowing. I am not expert, but the way Grid works, you cannot simply pick the wind farm, you have to have a systems view of the wind farm and how its back-up (likely NG generator) interact as a whole and does wind blow during the high demand etc. Wind at right places is excellent but outside of those geographic areas its a dead end. Also, windy places tend to be farther from where the demand is and you have to include transmission related expenditure. I think 500 mile distance is more or less rule of thumb considered not good, economically or environmentally. A metaphor if I may engage, is you cannot get a six pack with pure calorie counting, you have to have a bit more sophisticated system in nutrition and work outs for that. Same thing applies for The Grid, a wind mill of same specification at two different locations will give different yields, at different time of day and have completely different effect on system as a whole.
- adrianN 6y ago
  There are a number of people who do understand how grids work who still love wind and solar.
pengaru 6y ago
> Baseline power is less of an issue for EVs, since they a) have their own energy storage built in, and b) generally just run ~ 1 hour a day, making it pretty easy to come up with schemes to shift demand around. Is that really true when much of the employed population falls on a relatively uniform commute schedule? I'd expect similar congestion to what's seen on roadways to recur on an inadequate power grid.
- adrianN 6y ago
  Yes it's still true. To charge an EV the average person needs around 10kWh a day, distributed over 23h of parking time. That's not a lot of current. You just need to teach the car to talk to the grid so that not all cars charge at once.
  - pengaru 6y ago
    23h? That strikes me as ridiculously optimistic on a population-scale level. When only charged at home it's just an overnight charging window.
    - adrianN 6y ago
      Cars are parked about 23h a day. Eventually most parking spots will also have a charger, because that's pretty much the only way EVs will be adopted in cities where people don't have garages.
      - pengaru 6y ago
        I'm not sure how this looks WRT grid limits/congestion, but there's an alternative mass-adoption scenario where battery tech matures to the point of charge rates becoming equal or better than "gassing up" today. We don't have gas pumps at every parking spot and drivers are generally content with the current situation.
        adrianN 6y ago

tpmx 6y ago

I guess I'm mostly worried about the wind power trend. a) Politicians love them b) Politicians really don't understand power grids c) They don't seem to be that "green", after all, if you consider the life span and the co2 emissions from the concrete manufacturing.

freeone3000 6y ago
If the next-best alternative on point (c) was nuclear, nuclear is probably less polluting. But since nuclear is off the table, since people react really poorly to rare events that cause towns to be uninhabitable, the next-best for (c) is going to be natural gas or another fossil source. I'll take wind any day.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  I read an essay talking about another field where the authors conclusions apply to nuclear vs wind and solar. He participated in research on low cost rocket designs. His take away was the actual design wasn't as important as building more rockets rather than less. With solar you make panels by the 100 million. Wind turbines by the tens of thousand. Nuclear by the low digits. Per year.
rossjudson 6y ago
Not green? Really? Anything here change your mind: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/03/wind-energys-carbon-footprint/ https://www.factcheck.org/2018/03/wind-energys-carbon-footpr...
- sremani 6y ago
  Wind is dynamic generation - that means there is a likelihood within the system where there is a backup generation when wind is not blowing. I am not expert, but the way Grid works, you cannot simply pick the wind farm, you have to have a systems view of the wind farm and how its back-up (likely NG generator) interact as a whole and does wind blow during the high demand etc. Wind at right places is excellent but outside of those geographic areas its a dead end. Also, windy places tend to be farther from where the demand is and you have to include transmission related expenditure. I think 500 mile distance is more or less rule of thumb considered not good, economically or environmentally. A metaphor if I may engage, is you cannot get a six pack with pure calorie counting, you have to have a bit more sophisticated system in nutrition and work outs for that. Same thing applies for The Grid, a wind mill of same specification at two different locations will give different yields, at different time of day and have completely different effect on system as a whole.
adrianN 6y ago
There are a number of people who do understand how grids work who still love wind and solar.

pengaru 6y ago

> Baseline power is less of an issue for EVs, since they a) have their own energy storage built in, and b) generally just run ~ 1 hour a day, making it pretty easy to come up with schemes to shift demand around. Is that really true when much of the employed population falls on a relatively uniform commute schedule? I'd expect similar congestion to what's seen on roadways to recur on an inadequate power grid.

adrianN 6y ago
Yes it's still true. To charge an EV the average person needs around 10kWh a day, distributed over 23h of parking time. That's not a lot of current. You just need to teach the car to talk to the grid so that not all cars charge at once.
- pengaru 6y ago
  23h? That strikes me as ridiculously optimistic on a population-scale level. When only charged at home it's just an overnight charging window.
  - adrianN 6y ago
    Cars are parked about 23h a day. Eventually most parking spots will also have a charger, because that's pretty much the only way EVs will be adopted in cities where people don't have garages.
    - pengaru 6y ago
      I'm not sure how this looks WRT grid limits/congestion, but there's an alternative mass-adoption scenario where battery tech matures to the point of charge rates becoming equal or better than "gassing up" today. We don't have gas pumps at every parking spot and drivers are generally content with the current situation.
      - adrianN 6y ago