5 ms·

I'm still having trouble drawing a line in the sand between "healthy skepticism" and "overriding suspicion". When someone like michael moore does "bowling for

by bsaul 6y ago

I'm still having trouble drawing a line in the sand between "healthy skepticism" and "overriding suspicion". When someone like michael moore does "bowling for columbine", people didn't accuse him of being a conspiracy theory advocate. Yet, if he were to do a documentary today on the influence of pharmaceutical lobbying on the way the world handled covid (or the influence of china), he would surely be suspected. I don't think this category is useful in any way to think about a given issue / theory.

Udik 6y ago
While paranoid conspiratorial thinking does definitely exist, accusing others of conspiratorial thinking is a very handy way to dismiss other points of view. And as you rightly point out, what you consider to be a conspiracy theory depends often on your opinions on a subject. Climate change activists have claimed for a long time that our failure to address climate change is partly due to conspiratorial behaviour by oil companies- but this is of course perfectly fine.
- dhbsbd636 6y ago
  Did they claim there was some grand conspiracy? Or that they were being opposed by an oil industry funded lobby? Interest and advocacy groups exist and make no secret of their agendas. Do these pass for conspiracies now?
lend000 6y ago
Unproven theories that threaten someone's worldview are typically met with the same reaction as an opposing political opinions, and for similar reasons. Rarely is it based in logic and consideration, since adjusting one's worldview takes a lot of energy. My advice is to foster a worldview in which you accept that the world is poorly understood and many things are possible, and then you won't have to do significant reorganization (or denial and attack) every time an interesting new idea comes your way. There have been a lot of posts about conspiracies lately, but they have all been pretty tame (or things that were previously considered conspiracies and later proven true). Here are a few more that show that the USA is and has been capable of horrific things since it became a superpower. Now imagine what an autocracy might be doing. Or what things we might be doing that haven't been proven yet/the government actually makes an effort to cover up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_de_Aviaci%C3%B3n_Flight_455 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_de_Aviaci%C3%B3n_Flight... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22500231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22500231 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_A119 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_A119
- fit2rule 6y ago
  What might those with infinite-secret-keeping powers do with those abilities?
- krapp 6y ago
  No matter what Snowden uncovered, people who believe the CIA is controlling their thoughts with orbital lasers are wrong, even when they cite Snowden or MKULTRA as "proof." Adopting a worldview that accepts every claim, however absurd, as equally valid to all others is foolish. The world isn't flat, nor hollow. COVID isn't part of a New World Order plot to harvest your adrenochrome, we did on the moon, Hillary Clinton doesn't bathe in the blood of child sex slaves to maintain her human form, Sandy Hook was not a false flag, there are no FEMA death camps, no aliens at Area 51, HAARP doesn't control the weather, CERN didn't hack the Matrix, "cultural marxism" doesn't really exist, and neither does the "Deep State." You can accept that the world is more complex than you understand, and that conspiracies exist, while still having a standard for obvious bullshit. Or at the very least, while being dubious of extraordinary claims presented without extraordinary proof.
  - lend000 6y ago
    Of course, no one suggests that you accept every claim, but instead that you truly evaluate them, especially those with compelling arguments and evidence. Most people struggle to distinguish between ridiculous and taboo. There is a difference. Your reaction is the reaction I described -- it sounds like you have some work to do on being more open-minded. Being more open minded has helped me across many facets of my life, and I still have plenty of room for improvement. I highly recommend it.
    - bad_extension 6y ago
      Which of the mentioned claims do you think need more open-mindness?
      - bondarchuk 6y ago
        There is a kernel of truth to almost all of them, and what's concerning is when the most extreme bullshit is used to discredit this kernel of truth (and guess who benefits from this..). I think the cool kids call it "motte and bailey" nowadays. Most obviously, although indeed "Hillary Clinton doesn't bathe in the blood of child sex slaves to maintain her human form", there is now conclusive evidence of child sex slavery in the highest echelons of society.
tomjen3 6y ago
There are plenty who would accuse him of being part of the conspiracy theory to take away their guns, but the reason he wasn't accused broadly of being a conspiracy advocate then is that he advocated something that the media broadly wanted, whereas an expose of the failures of handling COVID will be attacking in part the media and in a great part the FDA which is not something the media is interested in, hence it would be labeled a conspiracy theory.
nabla9 6y ago
Bowling for columbine never suggested any type of conspiracy. Lobbying for guns and interest group cooperation is not a conspiracy in that sense. Propaganda, PR and political influencing is not conspiracy in the conspiracy theory sense. School shootings are not part of anyone's plan (except the shooters). Moore tried to reveal the extend of influence and manipulation, not to reveal some new sinister group with secret plot or "everything is connected" in some completely new way that explains shootings. Advancing ones own interest and that having a negative side effect of school shootings is not a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories have the belief that certain events or situations are secretly manipulated behind the scenes by powerful forces with negative intent.

by bsaul 6y ago

Udik 6y ago

While paranoid conspiratorial thinking does definitely exist, accusing others of conspiratorial thinking is a very handy way to dismiss other points of view. And as you rightly point out, what you consider to be a conspiracy theory depends often on your opinions on a subject. Climate change activists have claimed for a long time that our failure to address climate change is partly due to conspiratorial behaviour by oil companies- but this is of course perfectly fine.

dhbsbd636 6y ago
Did they claim there was some grand conspiracy? Or that they were being opposed by an oil industry funded lobby? Interest and advocacy groups exist and make no secret of their agendas. Do these pass for conspiracies now?

lend000 6y ago

Unproven theories that threaten someone's worldview are typically met with the same reaction as an opposing political opinions, and for similar reasons. Rarely is it based in logic and consideration, since adjusting one's worldview takes a lot of energy. My advice is to foster a worldview in which you accept that the world is poorly understood and many things are possible, and then you won't have to do significant reorganization (or denial and attack) every time an interesting new idea comes your way. There have been a lot of posts about conspiracies lately, but they have all been pretty tame (or things that were previously considered conspiracies and later proven true). Here are a few more that show that the USA is and has been capable of horrific things since it became a superpower. Now imagine what an autocracy might be doing. Or what things we might be doing that haven't been proven yet/the government actually makes an effort to cover up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_de_Aviaci%C3%B3n_Flight_455 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubana_de_Aviaci%C3%B3n_Flight... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22500231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22500231 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosures_(2013%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance_disclosure... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_A119 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_A119

fit2rule 6y ago
What might those with infinite-secret-keeping powers do with those abilities?
krapp 6y ago
No matter what Snowden uncovered, people who believe the CIA is controlling their thoughts with orbital lasers are wrong, even when they cite Snowden or MKULTRA as "proof." Adopting a worldview that accepts every claim, however absurd, as equally valid to all others is foolish. The world isn't flat, nor hollow. COVID isn't part of a New World Order plot to harvest your adrenochrome, we did on the moon, Hillary Clinton doesn't bathe in the blood of child sex slaves to maintain her human form, Sandy Hook was not a false flag, there are no FEMA death camps, no aliens at Area 51, HAARP doesn't control the weather, CERN didn't hack the Matrix, "cultural marxism" doesn't really exist, and neither does the "Deep State." You can accept that the world is more complex than you understand, and that conspiracies exist, while still having a standard for obvious bullshit. Or at the very least, while being dubious of extraordinary claims presented without extraordinary proof.
- lend000 6y ago
  Of course, no one suggests that you accept every claim, but instead that you truly evaluate them, especially those with compelling arguments and evidence. Most people struggle to distinguish between ridiculous and taboo. There is a difference. Your reaction is the reaction I described -- it sounds like you have some work to do on being more open-minded. Being more open minded has helped me across many facets of my life, and I still have plenty of room for improvement. I highly recommend it.
  - bad_extension 6y ago
    Which of the mentioned claims do you think need more open-mindness?
    - bondarchuk 6y ago
      There is a kernel of truth to almost all of them, and what's concerning is when the most extreme bullshit is used to discredit this kernel of truth (and guess who benefits from this..). I think the cool kids call it "motte and bailey" nowadays. Most obviously, although indeed "Hillary Clinton doesn't bathe in the blood of child sex slaves to maintain her human form", there is now conclusive evidence of child sex slavery in the highest echelons of society.

tomjen3 6y ago

There are plenty who would accuse him of being part of the conspiracy theory to take away their guns, but the reason he wasn't accused broadly of being a conspiracy advocate then is that he advocated something that the media broadly wanted, whereas an expose of the failures of handling COVID will be attacking in part the media and in a great part the FDA which is not something the media is interested in, hence it would be labeled a conspiracy theory.

nabla9 6y ago

Bowling for columbine never suggested any type of conspiracy. Lobbying for guns and interest group cooperation is not a conspiracy in that sense. Propaganda, PR and political influencing is not conspiracy in the conspiracy theory sense. School shootings are not part of anyone's plan (except the shooters). Moore tried to reveal the extend of influence and manipulation, not to reveal some new sinister group with secret plot or "everything is connected" in some completely new way that explains shootings. Advancing ones own interest and that having a negative side effect of school shootings is not a conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories have the belief that certain events or situations are secretly manipulated behind the scenes by powerful forces with negative intent.