6 ms·

DO compare it and see how much one can end up saving in a given time in the US, even after paying for healthcare, education etc.

jason0597 6y ago
Did you read the Twitter thread? The person writing the Twitter thread clearly outlines their feelings about the need to contribute to the social safety net. > I wanna give back, im okay with that > I don't wanna make 250k while most people work three jobs
- AntiImperialis4 6y ago
  Yes, I did read the whole thread. Nobody is stopping one from voluntarily donating to a non-profit or for-profit organization, or being involved in one for that matter. In Europe, most people don't work 3 jobs because either it's not legal to do so or those jobs don't exist because of debilitating regulations... or at some point, making more isn't really worth it because of how high the taxes go up.
  - pidg 6y ago
    The occasional donation to a non-profit might help people subsist, but it doesn't build a better society with more opportunities for everyone. Nobody needs an obscene salary for writing code when others are struggling to afford the basics. As an aside, I remember being really taken aback when I went on holiday to the US and most of the menial jobs were being carried out by Hispanic and Black people. I guess if you are a white American you get inured to it, but as a white European it was kind of creepy and a bit repulsive.
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      Race aside, how is that different than western europe importing eastern europeans to work their menial jobs?
      - pidg 6y ago
        I guess freedom of movement allowing Eastern Europeans to legally live, work and pay tax in Western Europe without jumping through hoops, and immediately being able to benefit from the social systems there.
  - Normal_gaussian 6y ago
    The financial efficiency of a well managed charitable organisation is atrocious compared to state programs. This is largely due to state programs having the capability to actually solve problems. Eliminating working three jobs is desirable, it isnt debilitating to prevent exploitation of workers, its enabling. Setting a minimum wage and maximum working hours creates a minimum quality of life. For most people this is desirable. As far as I can see you'd either have to be a sadist, or incredibly obsessed with how well off you are vs others to not want this.
scotty79 6y ago
You'll get ruined in US if you get cancer in your close family despite 'paying for healthcare' all your life. In my uncharitable opinion US is good for earning money as a young, highly educated person and for nothing else. So go there when you are around 25, work your ass off at whoever pays the most for your skillset, spend as little as possible and bail before 35. Later you're screwed. You'll still make more and more there but the money is going to be useless.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  >You'll get ruined in US if you get cancer in your close family despite 'paying for healthcare' all your life. Not really if you have insurance which as a software engineer you would have. Might hit your $10k out of pocket maximum but you salary will easily cover that. edit: When my dad got cancer his insurance actually PAID him a cash payout for every treatment on top of paying the medical costs. He works at a non profit.
  - jason0597 6y ago
    The person in the Twitter thread notes how her minimum wage mother had cancer. I think it is highly unlikely that someone working at a minimum wage job would be covered for that by their insurance (I may be wrong) This now infamous reddit comment puts it into perspective very well: https://old.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/hj6t3t/nothing_new_under_the_sky/fwl8aom/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/hj6t3t/not...
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      The comment I replied to made broad statements and based on the second sentence was talking about anyone with a cancer risk and not just those making low income. I don't disagree with your statement about costs to those lacking decent insurance, I merely disagree with creating broad generalizations unfounded in reality.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Are you really unaware of Medicaid? Here in Maryland, a 3-person household like the author's can make up to $29,000/year and be eligible for Medicaid.
kamyarg 6y ago
Per the author's twit, without the higher taxes etc. they would not have been able to afford becoming a software engineer without this welfare setup. Also, yes you save much more, but when your mother has cancer and dad is disabled(As the author explains), realistically much more than what you save ends up being spent to take care of them and paying their medical bills.
- bserge 6y ago
  I have to say, she might be wrong about that. The US is different, sometimes worse, but people have adapted. In the US, she would've been able to buy a laptop for dirt cheap or get it from some charity or just someone looking to get rid of it for free. I myself got my first laptops and smartphones from the US, it was cheaper than buying locally, believe it or not. Most, if not all MOOCs are from the US. Tons of blogs, content, documentation in English, written by Americans. Free for all, just learn and show your skills. But yes, if there's an unforeseen medical emergency, you could go bankrupt in the US, while you'd be taken care of for free (or nearly free) in Europe.
- AntiImperialis4 6y ago
  >they would not have been able to afford becoming a software engineer without this welfare setup. Maybe if her parents didn't have to pay so much in taxes, they'd be able to save for her education... or she'd be able to pay back in no time, specially because of the amount of money she could be making. >yes you save much more, but when your mother has cancer and dad is disabled, realistically much more than what you save ends up being spent to take care of them and paying their medical bills. That's not achieved by magic. It's just an insurance scheme, but at a national level, and you can't opt out even if you have different values. Not only that, you don't magically get better care either, because you still have to fight for limited medical resources. In most European countries, it's achieved by nepotism or corruption. In some others, you have an option of buying additional private insurance on top of the national scheme, which if you make enough is a no brainer because of how bad the waiting is, depending on what illness you happen to get.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  They'd realistically have Medicaid in the US which doesn't have high out of pocket costs. Probably social security payments for disability and various other government programs. Some programs would even pay the mother (or a relative) to stay home and help their disabled spouse. Community college is fairly inexpensive in the US so there's that as well.
arctangos 6y ago
I hope that advocates of purchasing power parity comparisons are prepared to factor in implicitly consumed but not easily purchasable goods. Otherwise, they would miss out on many of the things that truly matter in life. For example, in the EU, my middle class neighbors’ children safely bike and ride the train to and from their excellent publicly funded schools, after school activities, and friends’ houses requiring little to no adult supervision while in transit.* What do private schooling, chauffeurs, and security personnel cost in the US, anyway? *Of course, COVID does interfere somewhat with this, but this is true worldwide.

jason0597 6y ago

Did you read the Twitter thread? The person writing the Twitter thread clearly outlines their feelings about the need to contribute to the social safety net. > I wanna give back, im okay with that > I don't wanna make 250k while most people work three jobs

AntiImperialis4 6y ago
Yes, I did read the whole thread. Nobody is stopping one from voluntarily donating to a non-profit or for-profit organization, or being involved in one for that matter. In Europe, most people don't work 3 jobs because either it's not legal to do so or those jobs don't exist because of debilitating regulations... or at some point, making more isn't really worth it because of how high the taxes go up.
- pidg 6y ago
  The occasional donation to a non-profit might help people subsist, but it doesn't build a better society with more opportunities for everyone. Nobody needs an obscene salary for writing code when others are struggling to afford the basics. As an aside, I remember being really taken aback when I went on holiday to the US and most of the menial jobs were being carried out by Hispanic and Black people. I guess if you are a white American you get inured to it, but as a white European it was kind of creepy and a bit repulsive.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    Race aside, how is that different than western europe importing eastern europeans to work their menial jobs?
    - pidg 6y ago
      I guess freedom of movement allowing Eastern Europeans to legally live, work and pay tax in Western Europe without jumping through hoops, and immediately being able to benefit from the social systems there.
- Normal_gaussian 6y ago
  The financial efficiency of a well managed charitable organisation is atrocious compared to state programs. This is largely due to state programs having the capability to actually solve problems. Eliminating working three jobs is desirable, it isnt debilitating to prevent exploitation of workers, its enabling. Setting a minimum wage and maximum working hours creates a minimum quality of life. For most people this is desirable. As far as I can see you'd either have to be a sadist, or incredibly obsessed with how well off you are vs others to not want this.

scotty79 6y ago

You'll get ruined in US if you get cancer in your close family despite 'paying for healthcare' all your life. In my uncharitable opinion US is good for earning money as a young, highly educated person and for nothing else. So go there when you are around 25, work your ass off at whoever pays the most for your skillset, spend as little as possible and bail before 35. Later you're screwed. You'll still make more and more there but the money is going to be useless.

marcinzm 6y ago
>You'll get ruined in US if you get cancer in your close family despite 'paying for healthcare' all your life. Not really if you have insurance which as a software engineer you would have. Might hit your $10k out of pocket maximum but you salary will easily cover that. edit: When my dad got cancer his insurance actually PAID him a cash payout for every treatment on top of paying the medical costs. He works at a non profit.
- jason0597 6y ago
  The person in the Twitter thread notes how her minimum wage mother had cancer. I think it is highly unlikely that someone working at a minimum wage job would be covered for that by their insurance (I may be wrong) This now infamous reddit comment puts it into perspective very well: https://old.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/hj6t3t/nothing_new_under_the_sky/fwl8aom/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/hj6t3t/not...
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    The comment I replied to made broad statements and based on the second sentence was talking about anyone with a cancer risk and not just those making low income. I don't disagree with your statement about costs to those lacking decent insurance, I merely disagree with creating broad generalizations unfounded in reality.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Are you really unaware of Medicaid? Here in Maryland, a 3-person household like the author's can make up to $29,000/year and be eligible for Medicaid.

kamyarg 6y ago

Per the author's twit, without the higher taxes etc. they would not have been able to afford becoming a software engineer without this welfare setup. Also, yes you save much more, but when your mother has cancer and dad is disabled(As the author explains), realistically much more than what you save ends up being spent to take care of them and paying their medical bills.

bserge 6y ago
I have to say, she might be wrong about that. The US is different, sometimes worse, but people have adapted. In the US, she would've been able to buy a laptop for dirt cheap or get it from some charity or just someone looking to get rid of it for free. I myself got my first laptops and smartphones from the US, it was cheaper than buying locally, believe it or not. Most, if not all MOOCs are from the US. Tons of blogs, content, documentation in English, written by Americans. Free for all, just learn and show your skills. But yes, if there's an unforeseen medical emergency, you could go bankrupt in the US, while you'd be taken care of for free (or nearly free) in Europe.
AntiImperialis4 6y ago
>they would not have been able to afford becoming a software engineer without this welfare setup. Maybe if her parents didn't have to pay so much in taxes, they'd be able to save for her education... or she'd be able to pay back in no time, specially because of the amount of money she could be making. >yes you save much more, but when your mother has cancer and dad is disabled, realistically much more than what you save ends up being spent to take care of them and paying their medical bills. That's not achieved by magic. It's just an insurance scheme, but at a national level, and you can't opt out even if you have different values. Not only that, you don't magically get better care either, because you still have to fight for limited medical resources. In most European countries, it's achieved by nepotism or corruption. In some others, you have an option of buying additional private insurance on top of the national scheme, which if you make enough is a no brainer because of how bad the waiting is, depending on what illness you happen to get.
marcinzm 6y ago
They'd realistically have Medicaid in the US which doesn't have high out of pocket costs. Probably social security payments for disability and various other government programs. Some programs would even pay the mother (or a relative) to stay home and help their disabled spouse. Community college is fairly inexpensive in the US so there's that as well.

arctangos 6y ago

I hope that advocates of purchasing power parity comparisons are prepared to factor in implicitly consumed but not easily purchasable goods. Otherwise, they would miss out on many of the things that truly matter in life. For example, in the EU, my middle class neighbors’ children safely bike and ride the train to and from their excellent publicly funded schools, after school activities, and friends’ houses requiring little to no adult supervision while in transit.* What do private schooling, chauffeurs, and security personnel cost in the US, anyway? *Of course, COVID does interfere somewhat with this, but this is true worldwide.