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Quite frankly, I suggest the opposite. Most people in the west, and especially in the US, don't appreciate just how evil the CCP is. Our corporate media has g

Quite frankly, I suggest the opposite. Most people in the west, and especially in the US, don't appreciate just how evil the CCP is. Our corporate media has given the CCP a free pass on mass murder because many of our wealthiest people have made their fortunes through trade with China. We should all look long and hard at these images so that we don't forget them.

lasfter 6y ago
That's a fair take. I've seen plenty of this where I'm from, so I don't really have the stomach for more.
oulu2006 6y ago
I think you've made a good point.
barnacled 6y ago
It is fun to see criticisms of China get insta-downvoted to hell. Mine is fully referenced and went to -1 instantly... there is definitely some real denial about what the CCP actually do.
- oulu2006 6y ago
  Yeah, I noticed, CCP agents are around in force. I upvoted, but I can only do so much.
  - barnacled 6y ago
    I honestly wonder whether it's that or just standard HNers who are in some sort of woke-led state of denial. A totalitarian genocidal regime who has demonstrably lied consistently about everything of any importance but if you question whether, perhaps, they might have possibly done a little more about wet markets/traditional Chinese medicine given the 2003 SARS outbreak which clearly indicated this major risk area - and you get hammered for it. Go further and suggest maybe covering up the outbreak to give the virus enough time to spread everywhere was maybe not a great thing and the next virus might have a higher case fatality rate than 0.4% and that's it you're done. This is without even getting into the 'walked out of a lab' theory which would presumably get me banned off HN... It seems criticising the US, UK etc. for the slightest thing is fine but criticising totalitarian genocidal sabre-rattling pandemic-unleashing states is beyond the pale.
    - strogonoff 6y ago
      On a meta note, I wanted to respond to your top-level comment to point out (playing devil’s advocate) that there are countries like Japan with conviction rates well exceeding 99% (but for different reasons). I suspect that minor gotchas like this are capable of having the opposite effect: neutral people who care about nuance will feel like you are slightly adapting facts to suit anti-CCP narrative. Compounded by the fact that there is little verifiable information due to heavy censorship, this makes any argument on the topic quite challenging. After your top-level comment got downvoted I didn’t feel comfortable expressing my opinion: some might think I downvoted you and/or others will mistake me for an astroturfer. Personally, I’ve upvoted it and I agree on general sentiment.
      - barnacled 6y ago
        That's a good point to make, however it appears that the conviction rate in Japan comes down more to plea bargaining and only the most blatant cases being allowed to proceed forward [0]. I agree that kind of thing can erode the argument so thank you for pointing it out, I wasn't actually aware of that fact re: Japan and probably I'd put less emphasis on that knowing that there can be other alternative explanations. I don't agree that it's a struggle to criticise the CCP more generally however as while they lock down as much information as they can, plenty leaks out (as always with totalitarian regimes) and there is overwhelming evidence including video, testimony, etc. as to treatment of Uighurs and Falon Gong. I intentionally added references to my original post as to avoid such criticism... for all the good it did me! And please feel free to express yourself, I have upvoted you also :) [0]:https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/468111?journalCode=jls https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/468111?jou...
    - croes 6y ago
      Things like "pandemic-unleashing" devalue your comment.
      - barnacled 6y ago
        I do find the sensitivity on that phrasing hilarious given the absolute hysteria around US/UK politics and some of the phrasing used there. I won't make specific examples to avoid partisanship but it is just mind boggling. would "gross negligence, face-saving, cover up and delay resulting in over a million more deaths than necessary" work better for you? [0] [0]:https://www.zmescience.com/medicine/china-coronavirus-coverup-05253/ https://www.zmescience.com/medicine/china-coronavirus-coveru...
  - dang 6y ago
    Please read and follow the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You broke them badly here. There is no evidence that the people downvoting the comments you disagree with are communist agents. The evidence is entirely that the community is simply divided on divisive topics, like this one. That's what's going on here, and it's destructive to post these inflated accusations to the contrary—it's poison, in fact. That's why the site guidelines ask you not to do it.
- CyanBird 6y ago
  Calling for shock-porn rather than rationality and discourse is exactly the kind of things that receive downvotes on HN, not sure why you act so surprised
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- ekianjo 6y ago
  > see criticisms of China get insta-downvoted to hell. Let's dissociate the country from the political apparatus. What's evil is the CCP, not China in itself - it's not like the citizens can vote the current regime out.
  - barnacled 6y ago
    I really get extremely tired of this kind of thing. Obviously I mean the CCP when I say 'China'. Why does nobody say this when people criticise other countries? In nearly all parlance talking about countries you reference those countries directly 'the US invaded Iraq' for e.g. It's a shorthand for 'the govt of xxx'.
    - ekianjo 6y ago
      > Why does nobody say this when people criticise other countries? because most other countries we talk about have some kind of representative system where the people actually have a say in who governs them. Of course it's all relative, no representation is ever perfect, but in a dictatorial regime there's no representation at all.
      - barnacled 6y ago
        Yeah sure, I mean when people say 'Iran' did X or 'Venezuela' did Y those are fully representative govts that the people can overturn at any point. Oh wait. Why aren't you saying نظام‎ instead of Iran? Why not 'Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela' instead of Venezuela? Come on man.
        ekianjo 6y ago
        > , I mean when people say 'Iran' did X or 'Venezuela' did Y those are fully representative govts that the people can overturn at any point. For Venezuela, people did vote for Chavez in the first place right? Which then made the turn to dictatorship. Which is what you should expect when when you elect a Marxist.
        6y ago
- dang 6y ago
  If you don't have actual evidence of communist agents downvoting your comments, then you're breaking the rules by posting like this. Please review and follow https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." Overwhelmingly, this stuff is just internet-style cloak-and-dagger fantasy, and cheap rhetoric. How do I know that? Because when I look at who the actual users are who make these votes, and I see they were, for example, commenting on HN about Julia in 2015, the odds that they are a communist plant round to zero. This reality is so absolutely remote from what comments like yours are insinuating that it's hard for me to believe that people are willing to go there. Yet here we are, with spies in every closet and foreign agents under every bed. The only word for this is cartoonish. The truth is that this is a very large, very international community, with millions of users having all sorts of backgrounds and views, and they disagree on divisive topics like China. That is the extremely mundane—albeit emotionally charged—reality of what is going on here. Accusing people who hold different views of being spies and foreign agents is the fastest way to poison the community, so we don't allow it, especially when there isn't a shred of anything resembling evidence to support it. This entire dynamic is determined by tribal identifications on both sides. That leads people to hate and ultimately want to destroy each other. That's not compatible with the value of this site, which is curiosity. People can't be curious with each other and want to destroy each other at the same time—the nervous system doesn't work that way. If anyone wants more explanation, there are arbitrary amounts of it at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=astroturf%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....
quattrofan 6y ago
100% this, we buy crap cheaply and in fact we actively seek it out and it's enabled by China. We are all complicit.
- dang 6y ago
  We've already asked you not to post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN and you've continued to do it repeatedly. That's not what this site is for, so please stop. When an account posts like this in various threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25583482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25583482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25445883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25445883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25029414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25029414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24855732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24855732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24721883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24721883 ...it's painfully clear that this is not curious conversation but a pre-existing agenda. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

lasfter 6y ago

That's a fair take. I've seen plenty of this where I'm from, so I don't really have the stomach for more.

oulu2006 6y ago

I think you've made a good point.

barnacled 6y ago

It is fun to see criticisms of China get insta-downvoted to hell. Mine is fully referenced and went to -1 instantly... there is definitely some real denial about what the CCP actually do.

oulu2006 6y ago
Yeah, I noticed, CCP agents are around in force. I upvoted, but I can only do so much.
- barnacled 6y ago
  I honestly wonder whether it's that or just standard HNers who are in some sort of woke-led state of denial. A totalitarian genocidal regime who has demonstrably lied consistently about everything of any importance but if you question whether, perhaps, they might have possibly done a little more about wet markets/traditional Chinese medicine given the 2003 SARS outbreak which clearly indicated this major risk area - and you get hammered for it. Go further and suggest maybe covering up the outbreak to give the virus enough time to spread everywhere was maybe not a great thing and the next virus might have a higher case fatality rate than 0.4% and that's it you're done. This is without even getting into the 'walked out of a lab' theory which would presumably get me banned off HN... It seems criticising the US, UK etc. for the slightest thing is fine but criticising totalitarian genocidal sabre-rattling pandemic-unleashing states is beyond the pale.
  - strogonoff 6y ago
    On a meta note, I wanted to respond to your top-level comment to point out (playing devil’s advocate) that there are countries like Japan with conviction rates well exceeding 99% (but for different reasons). I suspect that minor gotchas like this are capable of having the opposite effect: neutral people who care about nuance will feel like you are slightly adapting facts to suit anti-CCP narrative. Compounded by the fact that there is little verifiable information due to heavy censorship, this makes any argument on the topic quite challenging. After your top-level comment got downvoted I didn’t feel comfortable expressing my opinion: some might think I downvoted you and/or others will mistake me for an astroturfer. Personally, I’ve upvoted it and I agree on general sentiment.
    - barnacled 6y ago
      That's a good point to make, however it appears that the conviction rate in Japan comes down more to plea bargaining and only the most blatant cases being allowed to proceed forward [0]. I agree that kind of thing can erode the argument so thank you for pointing it out, I wasn't actually aware of that fact re: Japan and probably I'd put less emphasis on that knowing that there can be other alternative explanations. I don't agree that it's a struggle to criticise the CCP more generally however as while they lock down as much information as they can, plenty leaks out (as always with totalitarian regimes) and there is overwhelming evidence including video, testimony, etc. as to treatment of Uighurs and Falon Gong. I intentionally added references to my original post as to avoid such criticism... for all the good it did me! And please feel free to express yourself, I have upvoted you also :) [0]:https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/468111?journalCode=jls https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/468111?jou...
  - croes 6y ago
    Things like "pandemic-unleashing" devalue your comment.
    - barnacled 6y ago
      I do find the sensitivity on that phrasing hilarious given the absolute hysteria around US/UK politics and some of the phrasing used there. I won't make specific examples to avoid partisanship but it is just mind boggling. would "gross negligence, face-saving, cover up and delay resulting in over a million more deaths than necessary" work better for you? [0] [0]:https://www.zmescience.com/medicine/china-coronavirus-coverup-05253/ https://www.zmescience.com/medicine/china-coronavirus-coveru...
- dang 6y ago
  Please read and follow the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You broke them badly here. There is no evidence that the people downvoting the comments you disagree with are communist agents. The evidence is entirely that the community is simply divided on divisive topics, like this one. That's what's going on here, and it's destructive to post these inflated accusations to the contrary—it's poison, in fact. That's why the site guidelines ask you not to do it.
CyanBird 6y ago
Calling for shock-porn rather than rationality and discourse is exactly the kind of things that receive downvotes on HN, not sure why you act so surprised
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ekianjo 6y ago
> see criticisms of China get insta-downvoted to hell. Let's dissociate the country from the political apparatus. What's evil is the CCP, not China in itself - it's not like the citizens can vote the current regime out.
- barnacled 6y ago
  I really get extremely tired of this kind of thing. Obviously I mean the CCP when I say 'China'. Why does nobody say this when people criticise other countries? In nearly all parlance talking about countries you reference those countries directly 'the US invaded Iraq' for e.g. It's a shorthand for 'the govt of xxx'.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    > Why does nobody say this when people criticise other countries? because most other countries we talk about have some kind of representative system where the people actually have a say in who governs them. Of course it's all relative, no representation is ever perfect, but in a dictatorial regime there's no representation at all.
    - barnacled 6y ago
      Yeah sure, I mean when people say 'Iran' did X or 'Venezuela' did Y those are fully representative govts that the people can overturn at any point. Oh wait. Why aren't you saying نظام‎ instead of Iran? Why not 'Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela' instead of Venezuela? Come on man.
      - ekianjo 6y ago
        > , I mean when people say 'Iran' did X or 'Venezuela' did Y those are fully representative govts that the people can overturn at any point. For Venezuela, people did vote for Chavez in the first place right? Which then made the turn to dictatorship. Which is what you should expect when when you elect a Marxist.
      - 6y ago
dang 6y ago
If you don't have actual evidence of communist agents downvoting your comments, then you're breaking the rules by posting like this. Please review and follow https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." Overwhelmingly, this stuff is just internet-style cloak-and-dagger fantasy, and cheap rhetoric. How do I know that? Because when I look at who the actual users are who make these votes, and I see they were, for example, commenting on HN about Julia in 2015, the odds that they are a communist plant round to zero. This reality is so absolutely remote from what comments like yours are insinuating that it's hard for me to believe that people are willing to go there. Yet here we are, with spies in every closet and foreign agents under every bed. The only word for this is cartoonish. The truth is that this is a very large, very international community, with millions of users having all sorts of backgrounds and views, and they disagree on divisive topics like China. That is the extremely mundane—albeit emotionally charged—reality of what is going on here. Accusing people who hold different views of being spies and foreign agents is the fastest way to poison the community, so we don't allow it, especially when there isn't a shred of anything resembling evidence to support it. This entire dynamic is determined by tribal identifications on both sides. That leads people to hate and ultimately want to destroy each other. That's not compatible with the value of this site, which is curiosity. People can't be curious with each other and want to destroy each other at the same time—the nervous system doesn't work that way. If anyone wants more explanation, there are arbitrary amounts of it at https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=astroturf%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....

quattrofan 6y ago

100% this, we buy crap cheaply and in fact we actively seek it out and it's enabled by China. We are all complicit.

dang 6y ago
We've already asked you not to post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN and you've continued to do it repeatedly. That's not what this site is for, so please stop. When an account posts like this in various threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25583482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25583482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25445883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25445883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25029414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25029414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24855732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24855732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24721883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24721883 ...it's painfully clear that this is not curious conversation but a pre-existing agenda. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html