5 ms·

Of course rational people should want to die. Death is a good thing on the whole. If we cease to die then humanity is doomed. Young people need to invent a wor

by bambax 6y ago

Of course rational people should want to die. Death is a good thing on the whole. If we cease to die then humanity is doomed. Young people need to invent a world of their own at each new generation; if old people (and therefore, old ideas, old prejudices) never die then there is no room for new. Additionally, from a practical perspective it becomes indefensible to make new people (have kids) because where will they all go? Not dying is the most selfish attitude imaginable; that level of selfishness is irrational.

goatinaboat 6y ago
if old people (and therefore, old ideas, old prejudices) never die then there is no room for new. This is a profoundly ageist viewpoint that sadly is very common in our industry. That’s why 40-somethings are laid off so 20-somethings can reinvent the wheel yet again in the shitty “framework” that’s fashionable this week. In every other industry, medicine, law, science you name it, experience is prized.
- teruakohatu 6y ago
  I think the op is arguing against having immortal 200 year old cyborgs running the world, not putting 40 year olds out to pasture.
  - ben_w 6y ago
    If I had 50 years experience as a business leader, 50 more as a software developer, another 50 as a UI/UX designer, and 50 as a digital security consultant, I would be more valuable than 4 people who had 50 years each, because what would be meeting between the four would be instant and complete awareness of all issues and without communication ambiguity for me. Certainly there would be need of a different economic model in a mortality-optional world so that young people who have yet to celebrate their first centennial can thrive, but that was also true when industry replaced feudalism and people started to stay in school until 21 (YMMV) instead of starting families the moment puberty hit.
    - tsimionescu 6y ago
      If you had last practiced software development between 100 and 50 years ago, and spent the last 50 years doing business leadership, I don't think you'd necessarily have as much value in a software development meeting as someone who just finished 20 years of software development. Even more frighteningly, you would likely be very convinced of your knowledge in software development, and would have the gravitas to silence any opposition to your ideas. Note: just to be clear, since text sometimes misses tone, I'm using a rhetorical 'you', not trying in any way to accuse you personally of the attitude described above!
      - ben_w 6y ago
        Fantastically well demonstrated point, and good footnote. While I personally do make an effort to know the limits of my skill, I have absolutely witnessed many who don’t.
- enkid 6y ago
  Ironically, there was a relatively recent study showing young doctors have better outcomes than old doctors. [0] [0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doctors-older-age-patient-mortality/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doctors-older-age-patient-morta...
enw 6y ago
> if old people (and therefore, old ideas, old prejudices) never die then there is no room for new Is that because there's no room? Or because we're unwilling to accommodate the new?
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  Often, you can't have two things at the same time. For example, young people in the USA are overwhelmingly in favor of Medicare for all, while older people are more divided. You can't have both Medicare for all and no Medicare for all - you can't accommodate the new without replacing the old.
ben_w 6y ago
> Additionally, from a practical perspective it becomes indefensible to make new people Birth rates are currently below replacement levels in developed nations. And if you’re immortal, you can wait forever to start your family.
- m4rtink 6y ago
  Not to mention there scould be space enough oce serious space colonization gets going. One could actually imagine many things progress better if you don't have to train new people all the time to replace those retiring & remove the stress death causes to all involved.
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    > Not to mention there scould be space enough oce serious space colonization gets going. Even with the current falling birthrates, you would not be able to move more people off the planet than are being born on it, even with space elevators. Space colonization is not a cure for overpopulation of Earth. One of the things Kim Stanley Robinson explored in his Mars trilogy.
    - m4rtink 6y ago
      Space fountains and launch loops can have a very high throughput if you can get them to work - then the main problem becomes building in space accommodation fast enough. For one fiction yet science based case of moving most of Earths population off planet during a short time window, see the following Orions Arm article: https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/49b46fd2198ed https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/49b46fd2198ed 5.5 bilion people over 20 years.
hyperpallium2 6y ago
Physics stops advancing. Powerful people consolidate their power, discouraging subversive ("disruptive") technology.
m4rtink 6y ago
Who says immortal people would behave like we see old people today ? With many of the biological clock and "not catching the train" stresses removed I would imagine mental health and general happiness would improve. And if you are living for hundreds of years, things will change around you and you will have to adapt anyway.
DennisP 6y ago
Part of the reason old people stick with old ideas and prejudices is that they have old brains. Real rejuvenation would make old brains as flexible as young brains, and there's already been research in that direction.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  Sure, there's a component of that. But cognitive biases such as sunk cost and the huge value we give personal experience are much bigger determiners for this attitude I believe. It's simply very hard to change the mind of someone who has worked with the same assumptions for 20 years. Hence, 'physics advances one funeral at a time' etc.
amanaplanacanal 6y ago
But there is a difference between saying I want to die eventually and I want to die now. At what age should the second one kick in? It makes more sense to say I want to die eventually, but then keep putting it off.
ausbah 6y ago
like others have said, I think this rests strongly on the assumption that immortal humans would act like old people today. I imagine if biological immortality is solved than "solving" such biases exhibited by older populations (which I don't think is entirely true either) would be right around the corner

by bambax 6y ago

goatinaboat 6y ago

if old people (and therefore, old ideas, old prejudices) never die then there is no room for new. This is a profoundly ageist viewpoint that sadly is very common in our industry. That’s why 40-somethings are laid off so 20-somethings can reinvent the wheel yet again in the shitty “framework” that’s fashionable this week. In every other industry, medicine, law, science you name it, experience is prized.

teruakohatu 6y ago
I think the op is arguing against having immortal 200 year old cyborgs running the world, not putting 40 year olds out to pasture.
- ben_w 6y ago
  If I had 50 years experience as a business leader, 50 more as a software developer, another 50 as a UI/UX designer, and 50 as a digital security consultant, I would be more valuable than 4 people who had 50 years each, because what would be meeting between the four would be instant and complete awareness of all issues and without communication ambiguity for me. Certainly there would be need of a different economic model in a mortality-optional world so that young people who have yet to celebrate their first centennial can thrive, but that was also true when industry replaced feudalism and people started to stay in school until 21 (YMMV) instead of starting families the moment puberty hit.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    If you had last practiced software development between 100 and 50 years ago, and spent the last 50 years doing business leadership, I don't think you'd necessarily have as much value in a software development meeting as someone who just finished 20 years of software development. Even more frighteningly, you would likely be very convinced of your knowledge in software development, and would have the gravitas to silence any opposition to your ideas. Note: just to be clear, since text sometimes misses tone, I'm using a rhetorical 'you', not trying in any way to accuse you personally of the attitude described above!
    - ben_w 6y ago
      Fantastically well demonstrated point, and good footnote. While I personally do make an effort to know the limits of my skill, I have absolutely witnessed many who don’t.
enkid 6y ago
Ironically, there was a relatively recent study showing young doctors have better outcomes than old doctors. [0] [0] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doctors-older-age-patient-mortality/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doctors-older-age-patient-morta...

enw 6y ago

> if old people (and therefore, old ideas, old prejudices) never die then there is no room for new Is that because there's no room? Or because we're unwilling to accommodate the new?

tsimionescu 6y ago
Often, you can't have two things at the same time. For example, young people in the USA are overwhelmingly in favor of Medicare for all, while older people are more divided. You can't have both Medicare for all and no Medicare for all - you can't accommodate the new without replacing the old.

ben_w 6y ago

> Additionally, from a practical perspective it becomes indefensible to make new people Birth rates are currently below replacement levels in developed nations. And if you’re immortal, you can wait forever to start your family.

m4rtink 6y ago
Not to mention there scould be space enough oce serious space colonization gets going. One could actually imagine many things progress better if you don't have to train new people all the time to replace those retiring & remove the stress death causes to all involved.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  > Not to mention there scould be space enough oce serious space colonization gets going. Even with the current falling birthrates, you would not be able to move more people off the planet than are being born on it, even with space elevators. Space colonization is not a cure for overpopulation of Earth. One of the things Kim Stanley Robinson explored in his Mars trilogy.
  - m4rtink 6y ago
    Space fountains and launch loops can have a very high throughput if you can get them to work - then the main problem becomes building in space accommodation fast enough. For one fiction yet science based case of moving most of Earths population off planet during a short time window, see the following Orions Arm article: https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/49b46fd2198ed https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/49b46fd2198ed 5.5 bilion people over 20 years.

hyperpallium2 6y ago

Physics stops advancing. Powerful people consolidate their power, discouraging subversive ("disruptive") technology.

m4rtink 6y ago

Who says immortal people would behave like we see old people today ? With many of the biological clock and "not catching the train" stresses removed I would imagine mental health and general happiness would improve. And if you are living for hundreds of years, things will change around you and you will have to adapt anyway.

DennisP 6y ago

Part of the reason old people stick with old ideas and prejudices is that they have old brains. Real rejuvenation would make old brains as flexible as young brains, and there's already been research in that direction.

tsimionescu 6y ago
Sure, there's a component of that. But cognitive biases such as sunk cost and the huge value we give personal experience are much bigger determiners for this attitude I believe. It's simply very hard to change the mind of someone who has worked with the same assumptions for 20 years. Hence, 'physics advances one funeral at a time' etc.

amanaplanacanal 6y ago

But there is a difference between saying I want to die eventually and I want to die now. At what age should the second one kick in? It makes more sense to say I want to die eventually, but then keep putting it off.

ausbah 6y ago

like others have said, I think this rests strongly on the assumption that immortal humans would act like old people today. I imagine if biological immortality is solved than "solving" such biases exhibited by older populations (which I don't think is entirely true either) would be right around the corner