4 ms·

Yeah completely agree that's what it's designed for, but to what end? What goal do we think the punishment achieves? The only useful thing about it IMO is prev

Yeah completely agree that's what it's designed for, but to what end? What goal do we think the punishment achieves? The only useful thing about it IMO is preventing truly dangerous/sick people from interacting with the rest of society. Most prisoners are not that

qwtel 6y ago
When you are the victim of a crime, you want the perpetrator to be punished. Typically to a larger extent than reasonable. That's the point. The fact that the state does it for you according to predefined rules, already is the civilised aspect. It's telling that liberals naturally take the perspective of perpetrator. Perhaps they remidn them of themselves?
- plutonorm 6y ago
  No. It's because we possess empathy.
  - qwtel 6y ago
    not for those who were wronged in the first place
    - throwaway998662 6y ago
      Most offenses in the USA are nonviolent drug offenses. Do you think those people should get long prison sentences?
    - alsetmusic 6y ago
      > not for those who were wronged in the first place What a shitty and presumptuous assumption to make.
  - dang 6y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, let along generic ideological flamewar, which is the sort of hell we're trying to avoid here.
- freedomben 6y ago
  There are plenty of crimes that are totally victimless for which we as a society "punish" people. I think you're right that the average person wants punishment for someone who has wronged them, but (for reasons only God knows) I think the average person also wants punishment for people that haven't wronged them at all, but just did something they think is immoral. I'll never forget seeing a neighbor call the cops on my friend who was smoking a joint in her own car. He only knew she was doing it because he was trespassing on her property. I couldn't believe someone would be such a dick to another person. I sure hope we can change cause what we do now is sick.
  - justinclift 6y ago
    Sounds like that guy is a control freak. Some people are like that. They don't seem to improve the world, when they do crap like this. :(
  - 20after4 6y ago
    Most people are really shitty. Sadly I can’t think of any satisfactory solution for that problem and I’m not too hopeful that any solution is forthcoming.
- hmry 6y ago
  Implying people who disagree with you only do so because they are like criminals is not a very open mindset.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. This is a noticeable drop into hell right here. We don't need you to change your views but we do need you not to post like this. A more substantive, less aggressive way of making your point would be fine. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
thayne 6y ago
Just to be clear my intended point (and the judges point) was that the justice system is broken, not that punishment is a worthwhile goal.
luma 6y ago
Wikipedia[1] lays out a list of common justifications for imprisonment that feels accurate: rehabilitation, deterrence, incapacitation, and retribution. Different societies may prioritize each of those differently. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest the US has gone long on the "retribution" angle in their approach to criminal justice. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Theories_of_punishment_and_criminality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Theories_of_punishment_...
- souprock 6y ago
  Something got left off the list, unless "retribution" is supposed to cover it. When people see crimes go unpunished, they form lynch mobs. An unsatisfied angry population is a dangerous thing to have.
  - luma 6y ago
    That's exactly what "retribution" covers, a sense that justice has been done for the victims and the community. Rehabilitation: should be obvious, nordic countries are well known for prioritizing this. Deterrence: again obvious, as noted elsewhere imprisonment has been found to be a poor deterrent in studies but the concept remains as a political argument in favor of harsher sentencing. Incapacitation: keeping the public safe by preventing dangerous individuals from having the ability to endanger others. and Retribution, which we just discussed above.
    - runarberg 6y ago
      > Rehabilitation: should be obvious, nordic countries are well known for prioritizing this. Only on paper (or more accurately as a self delusion). E.g. Iceland still uses excessive solitary confinement, even though it has shown to have negative rehabilitating effects and is under every definition a form of torture. The fact that the Icelandic prison system still engages in torture suggests that they are still in the retribution camp of punishment. I don’t know about the other Nordic countries but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear similar stories from there.
    - souprock 6y ago

qwtel 6y ago

When you are the victim of a crime, you want the perpetrator to be punished. Typically to a larger extent than reasonable. That's the point. The fact that the state does it for you according to predefined rules, already is the civilised aspect. It's telling that liberals naturally take the perspective of perpetrator. Perhaps they remidn them of themselves?

plutonorm 6y ago
No. It's because we possess empathy.
- qwtel 6y ago
  not for those who were wronged in the first place
  - throwaway998662 6y ago
    Most offenses in the USA are nonviolent drug offenses. Do you think those people should get long prison sentences?
  - alsetmusic 6y ago
    > not for those who were wronged in the first place What a shitty and presumptuous assumption to make.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, let along generic ideological flamewar, which is the sort of hell we're trying to avoid here.
freedomben 6y ago
There are plenty of crimes that are totally victimless for which we as a society "punish" people. I think you're right that the average person wants punishment for someone who has wronged them, but (for reasons only God knows) I think the average person also wants punishment for people that haven't wronged them at all, but just did something they think is immoral. I'll never forget seeing a neighbor call the cops on my friend who was smoking a joint in her own car. He only knew she was doing it because he was trespassing on her property. I couldn't believe someone would be such a dick to another person. I sure hope we can change cause what we do now is sick.
- justinclift 6y ago
  Sounds like that guy is a control freak. Some people are like that. They don't seem to improve the world, when they do crap like this. :(
- 20after4 6y ago
  Most people are really shitty. Sadly I can’t think of any satisfactory solution for that problem and I’m not too hopeful that any solution is forthcoming.
hmry 6y ago
Implying people who disagree with you only do so because they are like criminals is not a very open mindset.
dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. This is a noticeable drop into hell right here. We don't need you to change your views but we do need you not to post like this. A more substantive, less aggressive way of making your point would be fine. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

thayne 6y ago

Just to be clear my intended point (and the judges point) was that the justice system is broken, not that punishment is a worthwhile goal.

luma 6y ago

Wikipedia[1] lays out a list of common justifications for imprisonment that feels accurate: rehabilitation, deterrence, incapacitation, and retribution. Different societies may prioritize each of those differently. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest the US has gone long on the "retribution" angle in their approach to criminal justice. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Theories_of_punishment_and_criminality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison#Theories_of_punishment_...

souprock 6y ago
Something got left off the list, unless "retribution" is supposed to cover it. When people see crimes go unpunished, they form lynch mobs. An unsatisfied angry population is a dangerous thing to have.
- luma 6y ago
  That's exactly what "retribution" covers, a sense that justice has been done for the victims and the community. Rehabilitation: should be obvious, nordic countries are well known for prioritizing this. Deterrence: again obvious, as noted elsewhere imprisonment has been found to be a poor deterrent in studies but the concept remains as a political argument in favor of harsher sentencing. Incapacitation: keeping the public safe by preventing dangerous individuals from having the ability to endanger others. and Retribution, which we just discussed above.
  - runarberg 6y ago
    > Rehabilitation: should be obvious, nordic countries are well known for prioritizing this. Only on paper (or more accurately as a self delusion). E.g. Iceland still uses excessive solitary confinement, even though it has shown to have negative rehabilitating effects and is under every definition a form of torture. The fact that the Icelandic prison system still engages in torture suggests that they are still in the retribution camp of punishment. I don’t know about the other Nordic countries but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear similar stories from there.
  - souprock 6y ago