7 ms·

> ... and they could make you hurt others This is the part you missed. You can’t easily walk away from that.

opportune 6y ago
I don't see how that's possible. I could just quit if I felt I was doing something unethical. It is easy to get hired as a software engineer, though if you are on a restrictive work visa "just quitting" becomes a much harder decision.
- ddevault 6y ago
  You are doing something unethical. You are directly supporting an unethical business and generating at least as much revenue for them as the salary you take home. You have sold your soul, quite literally. You don't believe this because questioning it would call into question your own self-image as an upstanding person, it's a basic human bias that prevents you from confronting it. I'm not saying you aren't an upstanding person in general. I am saying that you are doing something wrong, and bias prevents you from recognizing or admitting it, even to yourself. You can't just quit, because quitting would be admitting that you're wrong. And that's hard to do!
  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    Your perspective requires agreeing with a specific interpretation that is just your opinion, then is wrapped into an accusatory tone that is unlikely to be particularly effective at getting OP to consider any changes that you think they should make.
  - throwaway3699 6y ago
    By working in a supermarket, you're directly supporting an unethical business which relies on modern slavery in China, Africa, etc... along with being damaging to the environment (single use plastics, animal farming) and pushing wage slavery onto you and your colleagues. You have sold your soul, quite literally. Reductio ad absurdum.
    - ddevault 6y ago
      The cashier at the supermarket does not enjoy a job market with exceptionally high salaries, benefits, and mobility. They don't have any choice. You do.
      - throwaway3699 6y ago
        Mobility in entry-level jobs isn't as bad as you make it out to be (I worked plenty of these as recently as a year ago). There are zero jobs in the world without a dark side. Or as you say, "blood on their hands". Even the tiniest non-profit, village bakery might accidentally source ingredients from exploited farm workers in 3rd world countries, or pay tax dollars which goes into US war efforts. The only reason we're having this conversation is because it's trendy to shit on FAANG companies. For any other case people would rightly say you're holding them to an unreasonable standard.
        ddevault 6y ago
        >Mobility in entry-level jobs isn't as bad as you make it out to be (I worked plenty of these as recently as a year ago). Having been there, too, and knowing many others who have had similar experiences, I don't think you fully understand what it's like for most people working low-wage jobs. >There are zero jobs in the world without a dark side. Or as you say, "blood on their hands". Even the tiniest non-profit, village bakery might accidentally source ingredients from exploited farm workers in 3rd world countries, or pay tax dollars which goes into US war efforts. There is an important difference. The bakery accidentally sourced those ingredients - and I'd expect them to change if it was brought to their attention. Megacorps deliberately and cognizantly engage in the behaviors we're discussing. Everyone is required to pay taxes, so that point can be dismissed. We are accountable to our country's misdeeds, but in a much different way and with a much different approach for addressing the problem. You can change your employer (as a tech worker enjoying excellent mobility) much more easily than you can change your nationality.
        throwaway3699 6y ago
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    > You are directly supporting an unethical business and generating at least as much revenue for them as the salary you take home. Whoever benefits from this value/excess value can behave unethically with it: is it evident that Bigcorp will behave (on average/net) more unethically than Smallco? If you work for Bigcorp and act to help them behave more ethically, are you making more of a difference than you would elsewhere? I say this lovingly, as someone who has actively chosen not to work for Bigcorps because I find them unethical. It's not always immediately obvious that the alternatives are more ethical. A smaller company might do more harm and face less scrutiny.
    - ddevault 6y ago
      >is it evident that Bigcorp will behave (on average/net) more unethically than Smallco? Smallco is certainly capable of unethical behavior, and I would encourage you to critically examine your both prospects and the companies you end up working for. But, for most values of Bigcorp that anyone could name, there's clear evidence of ongoing unethical behavior. >If you work for Bigcorp and act to help them behave more ethically, are you making more of a difference than you would elsewhere? Definitely, and I would support anyone who is doing so. But this isn't easy, and the typical software engineer plugging away is almost certainly not doing this. It takes a lot of hubris to presume that you, an engineer worth .00075% of your employer's revenue, can exert the necessary influence to cause substantive changes in unethical behavior. Perhaps if megacorp tech workers collectivized, it would be more realistic.
      - throwaway2245 6y ago
        > But, for most values of Bigcorp that anyone could name, there's clear evidence of ongoing unethical behavior. This slightly missed my point: Bigcorps engage in a lot of behaviour, some of which is evidenced to be unethical. Smallco engages in less behaviour, which is not evidenced. You have no way to judge if it's more unethical.
        ddevault 6y ago
        You're comparing a known with an unknown. We can judge that the known is unethical. We cannot judge either way on the unknown. It follows that the only possibly ethical choice is at Smallcorp. And I'm sure we could make a much better argument for it if we substituted Bigcorp and Smallcorp with actual options you were deciding between as a prospective employer.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    It sounds like your problem is with capitalism in general. If participating in capitalism is selling my soul, I'd rather sell it dearly. I've worked at small companies that did flagrantly unethical things. I've worked at small companies where my work was meaningless, I was unappreciated, or colleagues were unfairly forced out. Big companies don't have a monopoly on doing "evil" stuff. If anything their evil gets called out more frequently due to their size.
WJW 6y ago
Did you not read the part in the GP where he said "I could just leave and get another job at any time."? How is that not easily walking away from it?
- abdabab 6y ago
  You may not walk away if the BigCorp is subtle enough to hide how your actions are supporting an unethical intention. I don’t blame people for working in a BigCorp. You gotta pay rent or mortgage. I’m wary of the uncontrolled power they hold over humanity and the prestige we associate working for them. These two together can be lethal.

I don't see how that's possible. I could just quit if I felt I was doing something unethical. It is easy to get hired as a software engineer, though if you are on a restrictive work visa "just quitting" becomes a much harder decision.

ddevault 6y ago
You are doing something unethical. You are directly supporting an unethical business and generating at least as much revenue for them as the salary you take home. You have sold your soul, quite literally. You don't believe this because questioning it would call into question your own self-image as an upstanding person, it's a basic human bias that prevents you from confronting it. I'm not saying you aren't an upstanding person in general. I am saying that you are doing something wrong, and bias prevents you from recognizing or admitting it, even to yourself. You can't just quit, because quitting would be admitting that you're wrong. And that's hard to do!
- edmundsauto 6y ago
  Your perspective requires agreeing with a specific interpretation that is just your opinion, then is wrapped into an accusatory tone that is unlikely to be particularly effective at getting OP to consider any changes that you think they should make.
- throwaway3699 6y ago
  By working in a supermarket, you're directly supporting an unethical business which relies on modern slavery in China, Africa, etc... along with being damaging to the environment (single use plastics, animal farming) and pushing wage slavery onto you and your colleagues. You have sold your soul, quite literally. Reductio ad absurdum.
  - ddevault 6y ago
    The cashier at the supermarket does not enjoy a job market with exceptionally high salaries, benefits, and mobility. They don't have any choice. You do.
    - throwaway3699 6y ago
      Mobility in entry-level jobs isn't as bad as you make it out to be (I worked plenty of these as recently as a year ago). There are zero jobs in the world without a dark side. Or as you say, "blood on their hands". Even the tiniest non-profit, village bakery might accidentally source ingredients from exploited farm workers in 3rd world countries, or pay tax dollars which goes into US war efforts. The only reason we're having this conversation is because it's trendy to shit on FAANG companies. For any other case people would rightly say you're holding them to an unreasonable standard.
      - ddevault 6y ago
        >Mobility in entry-level jobs isn't as bad as you make it out to be (I worked plenty of these as recently as a year ago). Having been there, too, and knowing many others who have had similar experiences, I don't think you fully understand what it's like for most people working low-wage jobs. >There are zero jobs in the world without a dark side. Or as you say, "blood on their hands". Even the tiniest non-profit, village bakery might accidentally source ingredients from exploited farm workers in 3rd world countries, or pay tax dollars which goes into US war efforts. There is an important difference. The bakery accidentally sourced those ingredients - and I'd expect them to change if it was brought to their attention. Megacorps deliberately and cognizantly engage in the behaviors we're discussing. Everyone is required to pay taxes, so that point can be dismissed. We are accountable to our country's misdeeds, but in a much different way and with a much different approach for addressing the problem. You can change your employer (as a tech worker enjoying excellent mobility) much more easily than you can change your nationality.
        throwaway3699 6y ago
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  > You are directly supporting an unethical business and generating at least as much revenue for them as the salary you take home. Whoever benefits from this value/excess value can behave unethically with it: is it evident that Bigcorp will behave (on average/net) more unethically than Smallco? If you work for Bigcorp and act to help them behave more ethically, are you making more of a difference than you would elsewhere? I say this lovingly, as someone who has actively chosen not to work for Bigcorps because I find them unethical. It's not always immediately obvious that the alternatives are more ethical. A smaller company might do more harm and face less scrutiny.
  - ddevault 6y ago
    >is it evident that Bigcorp will behave (on average/net) more unethically than Smallco? Smallco is certainly capable of unethical behavior, and I would encourage you to critically examine your both prospects and the companies you end up working for. But, for most values of Bigcorp that anyone could name, there's clear evidence of ongoing unethical behavior. >If you work for Bigcorp and act to help them behave more ethically, are you making more of a difference than you would elsewhere? Definitely, and I would support anyone who is doing so. But this isn't easy, and the typical software engineer plugging away is almost certainly not doing this. It takes a lot of hubris to presume that you, an engineer worth .00075% of your employer's revenue, can exert the necessary influence to cause substantive changes in unethical behavior. Perhaps if megacorp tech workers collectivized, it would be more realistic.
    - throwaway2245 6y ago
      > But, for most values of Bigcorp that anyone could name, there's clear evidence of ongoing unethical behavior. This slightly missed my point: Bigcorps engage in a lot of behaviour, some of which is evidenced to be unethical. Smallco engages in less behaviour, which is not evidenced. You have no way to judge if it's more unethical.
      - ddevault 6y ago
        You're comparing a known with an unknown. We can judge that the known is unethical. We cannot judge either way on the unknown. It follows that the only possibly ethical choice is at Smallcorp. And I'm sure we could make a much better argument for it if we substituted Bigcorp and Smallcorp with actual options you were deciding between as a prospective employer.
- triceratops 6y ago
  It sounds like your problem is with capitalism in general. If participating in capitalism is selling my soul, I'd rather sell it dearly. I've worked at small companies that did flagrantly unethical things. I've worked at small companies where my work was meaningless, I was unappreciated, or colleagues were unfairly forced out. Big companies don't have a monopoly on doing "evil" stuff. If anything their evil gets called out more frequently due to their size.

WJW 6y ago

Did you not read the part in the GP where he said "I could just leave and get another job at any time."? How is that not easily walking away from it?

abdabab 6y ago
You may not walk away if the BigCorp is subtle enough to hide how your actions are supporting an unethical intention. I don’t blame people for working in a BigCorp. You gotta pay rent or mortgage. I’m wary of the uncontrolled power they hold over humanity and the prestige we associate working for them. These two together can be lethal.