4 ms·

I have worked in several highly secretive companies, including this one, and this is correct. Secrecy enables abuse.

by daniel_reetz 6y ago

zepto 6y ago
This stuff happens in companies that aren’t secretive though. I don’t see how secrecy enables this.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Sunlight is a disinfectant. With transparency, even the largest most aloof company has to grapple to some degree with poor PR and public shaming. Amazon is well-known for having a toxic work culture even beyond its fulfillment centers, thanks to Amazon employees speaking out. And having a high-profile voice- a Tim Bray, a Susan Fowler, is also invaluable. As of yet, there isn't an equivalent to Apple, probably because its culture is so secretive that people readily self-censor themselves about what goes on in the company.
  - zepto 6y ago
    I think Tim Bray is going a great service, but I don’t see any ‘disinfecting’ going on. I would like to believe sunlight is a disinfectant, but I have yet to see that in the corporate world. I think the only real ‘disinfectant’ would be the CEO realizing that it’s worth making things better for its own sake, and not just because of bad press.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      You're not wrong; we've seen Amazon try to wriggle out of their bad press by simply hiring armies of posters to tweet and blog positive propaganda, rather than actually fixing issues. Sunlight isn't enough, but I still think at least it's one step in the right direction. Better that Amazon has a poor work reputation than no one know about its abuses.
  - opportune 6y ago
    I don't think it has to do purely with visibility outside the company. Visibility within the company is just as, if not more, important. A common theme I've noticed regarding this in stories from Apple is people covering up/scapegoating failing projects by lying to management, creating fake reports, fabricating data, etc. The con seems able to be kept up for a long time because there is only one person you need to fool or convince to not care. At the less secretive companies I've worked at, where there are many-to-many dependencies and interactions, you'd never be able to get away with something like that because people will freely talk/collaborate/associate with people without going through management. Or people would just look at your source code and see that it's all smoke and mirrors.
    - zepto 6y ago
      Is there a collection of stories like this about Apple where you have been able to see a common theme?
      - opportune 6y ago
        I have just seen a lot of posts about this on Blind. Try searching Apple + toxic. https://www.teamblind.com/post/Miserable-and-depressed-at-Apple-mWEBMr8m https://www.teamblind.com/post/Miserable-and-depressed-at-Ap... https://www.teamblind.com/post/I-am-full-of-Hate-vOCmEpjn https://www.teamblind.com/post/I-am-full-of-Hate-vOCmEpjn Many bad posts about IS&T as well. I swear I've seen at least two very similar posts to the OP about Apple (maybe even written by the same person) although I'm having trouble finding it.
      - Apocryphon 6y ago
        There's a few here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25606200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25606200

I have worked in several highly secretive companies, including this one, and this is correct. Secrecy enables abuse.

zepto 6y ago

This stuff happens in companies that aren’t secretive though. I don’t see how secrecy enables this.

Apocryphon 6y ago
Sunlight is a disinfectant. With transparency, even the largest most aloof company has to grapple to some degree with poor PR and public shaming. Amazon is well-known for having a toxic work culture even beyond its fulfillment centers, thanks to Amazon employees speaking out. And having a high-profile voice- a Tim Bray, a Susan Fowler, is also invaluable. As of yet, there isn't an equivalent to Apple, probably because its culture is so secretive that people readily self-censor themselves about what goes on in the company.
- zepto 6y ago
  I think Tim Bray is going a great service, but I don’t see any ‘disinfecting’ going on. I would like to believe sunlight is a disinfectant, but I have yet to see that in the corporate world. I think the only real ‘disinfectant’ would be the CEO realizing that it’s worth making things better for its own sake, and not just because of bad press.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    You're not wrong; we've seen Amazon try to wriggle out of their bad press by simply hiring armies of posters to tweet and blog positive propaganda, rather than actually fixing issues. Sunlight isn't enough, but I still think at least it's one step in the right direction. Better that Amazon has a poor work reputation than no one know about its abuses.
- opportune 6y ago
  I don't think it has to do purely with visibility outside the company. Visibility within the company is just as, if not more, important. A common theme I've noticed regarding this in stories from Apple is people covering up/scapegoating failing projects by lying to management, creating fake reports, fabricating data, etc. The con seems able to be kept up for a long time because there is only one person you need to fool or convince to not care. At the less secretive companies I've worked at, where there are many-to-many dependencies and interactions, you'd never be able to get away with something like that because people will freely talk/collaborate/associate with people without going through management. Or people would just look at your source code and see that it's all smoke and mirrors.
  - zepto 6y ago
    Is there a collection of stories like this about Apple where you have been able to see a common theme?
    - opportune 6y ago
      I have just seen a lot of posts about this on Blind. Try searching Apple + toxic. https://www.teamblind.com/post/Miserable-and-depressed-at-Apple-mWEBMr8m https://www.teamblind.com/post/Miserable-and-depressed-at-Ap... https://www.teamblind.com/post/I-am-full-of-Hate-vOCmEpjn https://www.teamblind.com/post/I-am-full-of-Hate-vOCmEpjn Many bad posts about IS&T as well. I swear I've seen at least two very similar posts to the OP about Apple (maybe even written by the same person) although I'm having trouble finding it.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      There's a few here and there https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25606200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25606200