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I have to ask, why is it so hard to criticize or show Apple in a negative light on HN? If this was a post thrashing Google, it would already have over 300 upvo

I have to ask, why is it so hard to criticize or show Apple in a negative light on HN? If this was a post thrashing Google, it would already have over 300 upvotes, and "necessary" comments how there are already people who are "de-Googling" their life... I mean there are already skeptic comments regarding the author's intentions and experience? The fact is that out of all FAA(M)NG companies, work experience in Apple is by far the least known online, some might even say it has tendencies with a cult...

parasubvert 6y ago
I suspect if this were Google there would be similar skepticism about an anonymous unverified story that offers a threat at the end. There is too much bullshit out there on every topic, and it’s usually much more believable if you attach your name and reputation to a story (which is why it’s good to “believe women”, while still verifying). Apple is a big target with a decades of history in online advocacy debates. It’s not hard to criticize Apple on HN, every Apple thread has significant critiques. There are often defenders too, however, which is also fine.
sokoloff 6y ago
There are many articles and comments on HN critical of Apple. Read the vitriol over the 30% App Store cut, accusing them of being a minority and yet simultaneously monopoly producer of smartphones, the MBPro keyboard fiasco (which was absolutely shitty on Apple’s part), the glued-in batteries, the touchbar, the removal of ports, soldered-in RAM, etc. I don’t particularly think Apple gets a pass here. This article is garnering skeptics in part by being a James Joyce-ian barely coherent account of slights that read as a mix of real and imagined.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Apple gets its share of critics as it has since its inception, but it also gets its share of loyalists where the rest of FANG don't. One quickly notices that in discussions there as much of a knee-jerk impulse to defend Apple, as there is to bash the company. Even your comment reveals an abrupt dismissal of the OP's testimony, impugning the character of its author.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    I intended primarily to impugn their ability to tell a coherent, readable story, which is a necessary pre-condition for forming a judgment about the contents.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      That's your subjective take. The author's account reads like one of a trauma survivor, and is complete with details, quotes, and bolding for emphasis. Those who refuse to consider alternate viewpoints will have made their judgements, even if they have never been on the inside. So be it. But it is absolutely reprehensible to dismiss a victim's testimony in bad faith as "barely coherent account of slights that read as a mix of real and imagined". Shame on you.
sillysaurusx 6y ago
Hehe. You’re not wrong. Just remember that HN is all about tribalism. The show is more important than the substance. You’ll need to fall in love with performance art if you want your points to be known. And language, for that matter. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, personally. People are allowed to hate google but not apple, and vice versa. But! You’re also dead wrong. The story is substantive enough that we’re both reading it. Most of the top comments are echoing the story. And we’re all having a nice round of “managers suck.”
- rantwasp 6y ago
  People are about tribalism. We’re wired to work this way :(
mgh2 6y ago
Because when people's belief systems are threatened, they react as if they are being personally attacked. Apple's cult following is treated as a religion by its fans. I see this with religions or cults that attack others who criticize them with similar tactics: denial, obfuscation, manipulation, deflection, shaming, name-calling, threats, etc. Aside from technical criticisms - which the tech community in HN values and encourages, a different and recent example is that of long time labor abuses. The initial articles have not gathered enough attention, but once they did, you start to notice some user burying and flagging. They have just recently resurfaced due to more evidence being discovered. Apple: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570247 Tesla: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25360432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25360432 Sometimes you have to punch your way into brainwashed people's minds to make them see the truth (ex: overwhelm them with evidence).
hindsightbias 6y ago
People keep claiming this without citations, here’s one: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastWeek&page=0&prefix=false&query=apple&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastWeek&page=0&prefix=fal... Apple bashing is objectively a sport here.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  There's no shortage in anti-Apple articles, because they're an industry leader and a beloved brand, and media loves controversy. However it also seems like for whatever reason, discussions on those stories seem to attract as many knee-jerk Apple defenders as Apple critics, while stories bashing Amazon or Facebook or Google tend to involve everyone agreeing more or less that they're bad or at least not as good as they used to be. Maybe partly this might even be because Apple's focus is selling actual products you can hold and keep in your home (and not become monetized by) as opposed to being an abstract software program or service. It's easier to be surprised and delighted by real products.
Der_Einzige 6y ago
I don't know anything about the work experiences at netflix, and the total number of employees there is a small fraction of what it is at Apple...

parasubvert 6y ago

I suspect if this were Google there would be similar skepticism about an anonymous unverified story that offers a threat at the end. There is too much bullshit out there on every topic, and it’s usually much more believable if you attach your name and reputation to a story (which is why it’s good to “believe women”, while still verifying). Apple is a big target with a decades of history in online advocacy debates. It’s not hard to criticize Apple on HN, every Apple thread has significant critiques. There are often defenders too, however, which is also fine.

sokoloff 6y ago

There are many articles and comments on HN critical of Apple. Read the vitriol over the 30% App Store cut, accusing them of being a minority and yet simultaneously monopoly producer of smartphones, the MBPro keyboard fiasco (which was absolutely shitty on Apple’s part), the glued-in batteries, the touchbar, the removal of ports, soldered-in RAM, etc. I don’t particularly think Apple gets a pass here. This article is garnering skeptics in part by being a James Joyce-ian barely coherent account of slights that read as a mix of real and imagined.

Apocryphon 6y ago
Apple gets its share of critics as it has since its inception, but it also gets its share of loyalists where the rest of FANG don't. One quickly notices that in discussions there as much of a knee-jerk impulse to defend Apple, as there is to bash the company. Even your comment reveals an abrupt dismissal of the OP's testimony, impugning the character of its author.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  I intended primarily to impugn their ability to tell a coherent, readable story, which is a necessary pre-condition for forming a judgment about the contents.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    That's your subjective take. The author's account reads like one of a trauma survivor, and is complete with details, quotes, and bolding for emphasis. Those who refuse to consider alternate viewpoints will have made their judgements, even if they have never been on the inside. So be it. But it is absolutely reprehensible to dismiss a victim's testimony in bad faith as "barely coherent account of slights that read as a mix of real and imagined". Shame on you.

sillysaurusx 6y ago

Hehe. You’re not wrong. Just remember that HN is all about tribalism. The show is more important than the substance. You’ll need to fall in love with performance art if you want your points to be known. And language, for that matter. I don’t think that’s a bad thing, personally. People are allowed to hate google but not apple, and vice versa. But! You’re also dead wrong. The story is substantive enough that we’re both reading it. Most of the top comments are echoing the story. And we’re all having a nice round of “managers suck.”

rantwasp 6y ago
People are about tribalism. We’re wired to work this way :(

mgh2 6y ago

Because when people's belief systems are threatened, they react as if they are being personally attacked. Apple's cult following is treated as a religion by its fans. I see this with religions or cults that attack others who criticize them with similar tactics: denial, obfuscation, manipulation, deflection, shaming, name-calling, threats, etc. Aside from technical criticisms - which the tech community in HN values and encourages, a different and recent example is that of long time labor abuses. The initial articles have not gathered enough attention, but once they did, you start to notice some user burying and flagging. They have just recently resurfaced due to more evidence being discovered. Apple: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570247 Tesla: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25360432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25360432 Sometimes you have to punch your way into brainwashed people's minds to make them see the truth (ex: overwhelm them with evidence).

hindsightbias 6y ago

People keep claiming this without citations, here’s one: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastWeek&page=0&prefix=false&query=apple&sort=byPopularity&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastWeek&page=0&prefix=fal... Apple bashing is objectively a sport here.

Apocryphon 6y ago
There's no shortage in anti-Apple articles, because they're an industry leader and a beloved brand, and media loves controversy. However it also seems like for whatever reason, discussions on those stories seem to attract as many knee-jerk Apple defenders as Apple critics, while stories bashing Amazon or Facebook or Google tend to involve everyone agreeing more or less that they're bad or at least not as good as they used to be. Maybe partly this might even be because Apple's focus is selling actual products you can hold and keep in your home (and not become monetized by) as opposed to being an abstract software program or service. It's easier to be surprised and delighted by real products.

Der_Einzige 6y ago

I don't know anything about the work experiences at netflix, and the total number of employees there is a small fraction of what it is at Apple...