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Avoid using wood burning stoves if possible, warn health experts
- jefft255 6y agoI thought this was well-known? I live in Montréal and there are pretty serious regulations on wood burning stoves [1-2]. I grew up in a wood heated house and I sure love sitting by the stove, but that was in the country with extremely low housing density. I'm not super convinced about indoor air pollution, with the right stove? French links, Google translate should get the gist [1] http://www1.ville.montreal.qc.ca/banque311/content/po%C3%AAle-et-foyer-au-bois-r%C3%A8glement-sur-les-appareils-et-les-foyers-%C3%A0-combustible-solide http://www1.ville.montreal.qc.ca/banque311/content/po%C3%AAl... [2] https://www.lapresse.ca/maison/immobilier/conseils/201804/17/01-5161361-le-casse-tete-des-foyers-a-montreal.php https://www.lapresse.ca/maison/immobilier/conseils/201804/17...
- roywiggins 6y agoYou still need to open them to fuel them, and people do that fairly frequently, which floods the space with particulates. > The results showed the burners were usually lit for about four hours at a time, and during this period the level of harmful particles in homes was three times higher than when stoves were not being used. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/18/wood-burners-triple-harmful-indoor-air-pollution-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/18/wood-bur...
- rhodozelia 6y agoPresumably when the stove is not in use the amount of harful particles is very low. So a three times increase of a very small number is also very small.
- roywiggins 6y agoThe paper says that short-term peaks are linked to health issues (from page 2): > epidemiologists are increasingly recognising that exposure to high intensities of PM over much shorter periods of time—hours rather than days—is linked to a range of health issues .Indeed, Lin et al. found a significant association between hourly peakPM2.5andmortality rates across six Chinese cities. Similarly, a systematic review of 196 articles found a positive relationship between short term PM exposure and cardiovascular, respiratory, and cerebrovascular mortality https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4433/11/12/1326# https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4433/11/12/1326#
- jasongrishkoff 6y agoI'm wondering if this is also be applicable in the case of a closed combustion wood burning fireplace? (internally, at least). My understanding is that they create quite a tight seal when all closed up.
- roywiggins 6y ago> Wood burners cause less indoor pollution than open fires. “But every time you open the door, you reduce the stove to an open fire and particulate matter floods into the home,” he said. The peaks take an hour or two to dissipate. “But by the time it comes down, someone opens the door again to refuel and you get spike after spike,” Chakraborty said. Some burners have filters, but these only reduce the pollution being vented outside. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/18/wood-burners-triple-harmful-indoor-air-pollution-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/18/wood-bur...
- spodek 6y agoLow Tech Magazine, one of my favorite sites online, has written a few articles on wood and biomass: - Well-Tended Fires Outperform Modern Cooking Stoves: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2014/06/thermal-efficiency-cooking-stoves.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2014/06/thermal-efficiency-c... - Too Much Combustion, Too Little Fire: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2019/12/too-much-combustion-too-little-fire.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2019/12/too-much-combustion-... - How to Make Biomass Energy Sustainable Again: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/09/how-to-make-biomass-energy-sustainable-again.html https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/09/how-to-make-biomass-...
- jeffbee 6y agoLow Tech Magazine is pretty much bullshit from cover to cover and these articles are great examples of the genre. Read the first one with a critical eye. It doesn't make any sense. It's just a deceptive argument constructed to make performative primitivism seem competitive with modern technology, which it isn't. An electric induction cooker is superior to any kind of fire, in all aspects and ways, by large margins in every direction.
- rlonn 6y agoTry roasting marshmallows on your induction cooker.
- FlyMoreRockets 6y agoWouldn't a cast iron skillet on an induction cooker radiate enough heat to roast marshmallows?
- jeffbee 6y agoI can easily heat a carbon steel crepe pan to red hot on an induction cooker. Roasting marshmallows is no problem. Is there anything else you haven't tried that you'd care to opine on?
- jefft255 6y agoI agree that this article paints an unrealistic picture, and that broadly speaking an induction stove is "superior". But I disagree with "in all aspects and ways, by large margins in every direction". Cooking meat on a wood fire gives a very distinct char and flavor which I don't believe you can replicate perfectly on an induction stove. I personally love that taste.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- gruez 6y ago>Wood burners have become increasingly popular in recent years [...] Almost 16% of people in the south-east of England use wood fuel, and 18% in Northern Ireland, according to 2016 government data, and about 175,000 wood burners are sold annually. If you're wondering why they're so popular, it's because wood counts as "renewable fuel", so it helps EU countries meet their renewable energy targets. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25331390 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25331390
- chrisseaton 6y agoI think they're also popular because * people have wood anyway so they might as well use it for something * it often suits the design of houses here which were historically built for a central stove burner like this * many people have wood-burning stoves for cooking that are extremely large and heavy permanent fixtures in their kitchen and cannot easily be removed or adapted and are designed to permanently be burning wood so you can't really turn them off either * people like the smell and aesthetic (note this article is in just about the most middle-class publication there is in the UK)
- aqrit 6y agoOutdoor wood furnaces (boilers) became very popular over the last 15 years. They are cheaper than fuel oil. A traditional wood stove has to be refilled every 2 hours (or so), and is also a major fire hazard. "Wood burners" may also include pellet stoves which are also increasingly popular for similar reasons.
- chrisseaton 6y agoCan't say I've ever seen an outdoor boiler in a home counties garden. But maybe you're talking about something specific?
- aqrit 6y agowww.central-boiler.co.uk ?
- gnicholas 6y agoI have a neighbor who burns wood every day, and I bought an air quality monitor to see what the impact is on our air. The AQI hits 150 when it’s burning, which is really unhealthy. I was surprised it was this bad, especially since he’s not that close of a neighbor (on a different street even).
- DoingIsLearning 6y agoThis is an indoor measurement in your house or an outside street measurement?
- gnicholas 6y agoOutside my front door. Every time we bring in a package the smell of smoke spreads through the house. And we can’t open windows to air out the baby’s room (after a diaper change) since we’d be swapping smelly air for air that is both smelly and unhealthy.
- irq 6y agoI, too, have a neighbor with a wood burner (used during the cold months only fortunately) that easily adds 75 to 100 to the outdoor AQI (using Purple Air). My indoor air quality is unaffected due to central air filtering. Given the health impact, these burners should be seized and replaced with almost anything else, with full financial assistance. (Why? It's cheaper to replace these burners than it is to suffer the long term public health costs caused by their existence).
- gnicholas 6y agoIn California, it is illegal to burn (except for cooking or if you have no other way to heat your home) on Spare the Air days. Unfortunately, there are a surprising number of homes in the Bay Area that fall into the latter exception. I recently heard about this nonprofit that is helping people retrofit their homes and get rid of wood burning stoves. http://www.rebuildingtogetherpeninsula.org/ http://www.rebuildingtogetherpeninsula.org/
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- LatteLazy 6y agoAnyone know how this compares to other daily hazards (living on a main road, being overweight etc)? Edit Looks like you can get a hepa filter for £70 that will fix the issue for the most part. https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08G8JHGWH/ref=cm_sw_r_wa_apa_fabc_oe37FbTYE4ETA?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08G8JHGWH/ref=cm_sw_r_wa_apa_fa... And gas stoves (and so presumably fires?) are also a problem. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/05/gas-stoves-air-pollution-environment https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/05/gas-stov... Thank god we mastered central heating decades back...
- teej 6y agoThis article says breathing the air in Beijing on one day is 15 micromorts. Beijing seems to have a P2.5 AQI of 50-100. You can use that to compare to the hazard of your choice. https://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/report-every-breath-you-take-1967951 https://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/report-every-breath-you-t...
- _huayra_ 6y ago> Looks like you can get a hepa filter for £70 that will fix the issue for the most part. True though that may be, I think the main issue is the spoiling of the commons: the air we breathe. I love my indoor air filters, but I sure do like fresh outdoor air as well. With regards to the gas stoves: it's mostly an issue of indoor air pollution which is certainly valid (a lot of particulate matter is created when cooking anything with heat). Even a properly sealed / ventilated wood stove is creating a lot more pollution than an equivalent gas one. Now if we could only heat our house by mining bitcoin we'd all be better off. /s
- noja 6y ago> Looks like you can get a hepa filter for £70 that will fix the issue for the most part. That's not a fix.
- j45 6y agoCOPD damage to lungs due to open fire exposure is a real thing. No one should have to learn this the hard way for themselves.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- HPsquared 6y agoWalking down a middle-class street in the UK on a cold, calm day, the smell of smoke from the various wood burners is quite apparent. Amazing these are allowed when the controls on other particulate emitters, e.g. diesel cars, are (rightly) so strict.
- MattGaiser 6y agoI am surprised to learn that burning wood for heat/cooking is something done outside Amish type communities at any significant level in the developed world.
- bubbleboy2021 6y agoHaha, I can never get enough of the bubble boys on this site. Truly amazing how sheltered some of you folks are. Tech is sadly filled to the brim with this type of ignorant person.
- ng12 6y agoIf you live in the rural parts of the northeastern US you'll end up with a years supply of wood just by occasionally clearing your land. It makes a lot of sense to use it for heat, many houses up there have both oil and a wood burning stove for heat.
- bjelkeman-again 6y agoAnd if you didn’t use the wood it would decompose and release the carbon anyway. Too much wood burning in the neighbourhood can be bad for air quality though.
- retrac 6y agoWood, often industrial wood waste, is simply the cheapest heat source in many regions. It's relatively common in suburban and rural Canada, and in the cold northern parts of the USA as well. Also the Nordic countries and Hokkaido in Japan. Probably anywhere with a low population density and a lot of trees. I know Finland has wood-fired electric power plants in the hundred-megawatt range. Just like a small coal plant but with a wood-fired burner. And while not wood, in a similar vein I believe Ireland was burning peat for electricity until recently.
- rarefied_tomato 6y agoAmong those who don't live in cookie-cutter neighborhoods or cities, this is very common in the midwest US.
- fasteddie31003 6y agoIf you smell wood smoke your fireplace is either not an efficient design or you are burning the wood wrong. A modern efficient fireplace with a catalytic converter does a really good job at converting wood to heat.
- myself248 6y agoAnd the article makes no mention of catalytic wood stoves, which drives me nuts because I thought pretty much all the recent ones included at least an option for a catalyst.
- DoofusOfDeath 6y agoDoes a wood-stove catalytic converter help with PM2.5? That seemed to be the main focus of the article.
- fasteddie31003 6y agoIt burns hotter which means it does a better job at combustion. I'd imagine the PM2.5 is much lower for a hotter fire.
- throw0101a 6y agoNote that catalytic convertors are not strictly necessar. Plenty of EPA-approved designs use other mechanisms to achieve the same result: * https://www.epa.gov/burnwise https://www.epa.gov/burnwise
- 14 6y agoAround here I can get a months worth of wood for about 100-150$. A months worth of oil is about 1000$. Also wood heat is so hot an excessive I walk around in my underwear most the day. But with oil I can barely afford to keep the temp enough. I compare oil because most homes around where I live still have oil furnaces. I know lots of people that seek out wood stoves. I can’t imagine they can afford to have a choice at that difference.
- morsch 6y agoBuy some insulation, would be my unsolicited recommendation.
- hazeii 6y agoThis has long been an issue for developing nations [0], somehow the UK is well behind the curve (wood burners in town seem to be status symbols here). [0] https://www.povertyactionlab.org/evaluation/cooking-stoves-indoor-air-pollution-and-respiratory-health-india https://www.povertyactionlab.org/evaluation/cooking-stoves-i...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- thrower123 6y agoWell, no shit. On the other hand, wood is really cheap, and if you want to heat up to 75-85 F, there's really no substitute.
- dash2 6y agoCentral heating?
- thrower123 6y agoThe price of doing that with electric or oil or natural gas will cripple you. There's a reason thermostats are set to 60 or 65 degrees. With wood you just chuck another stick in the furnace and let her rip.
- bubbleboy2021 6y agoNot true at all. Might want to look into how well insulated your house is ;)
- ashtonkem 6y agoWhat regulations does the UK have for wood burning stoves? Here in America we have pretty tight regulations on wood burning stoves for the particulate they can emit. Starting in 2020 new stoves can only emit 2.0g/hr of particulate, down from the 4.5g/hr that was the rule from 2015. Most stoves I’ve seen come in at 1.54g/hr, but I’ve seen a few down at 0.5g/hr. It’s not uncommon to see stoves with catalytic converters in them to fully burn off any particulate. Obviously this isn’t as clean as natural gas, which emits close to no particulate, but it’s a long way from a coal fireplace. I wonder if such regulations would help, or would they not be sufficient?
- throw0101a 6y agoEPA mandate for 2020 that's been in the works for a while: * https://www.epa.gov/burnwise https://www.epa.gov/burnwise
- aaomidi 6y agoUgh, and here I was really liking the idea of wood burning. I really liked how little of a climate impact it has... :( Other forms of heating is just so expensive in cold places though.
- 7952 6y agoI think the climate benefit is overstated. Trees take a long time to grow and we need to cut co2 now. Presumably you need to be planting substantially more trees than are felled to improve co2 in an acceptable time scale.
- aaomidi 6y agoEh, trees are the least of our concerns though. Like, trees aren't gonna put the carbon back into the ground which is where our problem started (coal, oil). I don't see trees as a solution or even as a delaying factor.
- chrisjs95 6y agoHas anyone done the numbers on Coronvirus hospitalizations and wood burning stoves?
- z3t4 6y agoWe have burned wood for thousand of years, and its considered a luxury to have an open fire in your house. And we make camp fires. Either its not that bad for us or we are really stupid.
- Faaak 6y agoMany people do small fires and try to let the fire alive as long as possible. The consequences are that the stove is not hot enough to ignite the fumes. This yields to a poor fire: low efficiency, high particle emissions, and poor heat. The "real" way is to light it from the top, and don't be afraid to make a big one.
- Uninen 6y agoI remember reading Fireplace Delusion by Sam Harris [1] (it's about religion, but uses the fireplace as an analogy of harmful thing that people in some sense know that is harmful but still keep enjoying and using) a long time ago and have been thinking the harmfulness of burning wood ever since. It's weird how hard it is to take news like this in even though it's backed by actual science. I just like the smell and the type of the warmness that a wood stove (or a fireplace) creates and would use them instead of electric stove or heaters when given a chance. I'm pretty sure people can't be cured of brain bugs like this after some age or some degree of conditioning (in the sense of "it's always been like this and I don't want to change"). Hopefully the next generation is raised better based on new data and will be smarter than us. (Or at least me.) 1: https://samharris.org/the-fireplace-delusion/ https://samharris.org/the-fireplace-delusion/
- cosmiccatnap 6y agoIn other news, smoking and drinking are also bad. I assume this is a thread where we share things that should be obvious to anybody with a basic understanding of biology and chemistry.
- Brian_K_White 6y agoThis really just feels like a salvo in a slow gradual fight between people who just don't personally like wood stoves and anyone else wo either likes them or doesn't really care. I actually like the smell of my neighbors wood stove. I don't even know who it is since I'm in a dense area. I don't own a wood stove myself so I'm not just protecting my own. I did grow up in houses with them. Everyone's house had them. (upstate ny) I wish people would not abuse the concept of public good or shared space etc just to get their way about every single thing they personally don't prefer. You don't like wood smoke in winter? Go live in an HOA that doesn't allow them. It's a smell not a public health hazard. Besides, oil and gas furnaces and coal and gas fired power plants are better? Really? Because that's what the alternatives are still. We're still a long way from having cheap plentiful electricity that doesn't come from a bad source. If this article is really ultimately driven by what it claims about a health hazard from particulates, then why does it only propose removing all wood burners instead of say, developing some kind of catalytic converter or double-burner or other means of cleaning the exhaust? I would be more interested in a study of actual health histories and stats of areas where stoves were common vs not, than in this measurement of particulates and a claim that they are bad.
- lumberingjack 6y agoThere's an art to burning a wood stove in a modern home and not making a mess. Most people don't use the ash tray systems that come with these modern catalyzed wood stoves they don't know how to use them and they don't care even if they're taught because it's a slight inconvenience. I treat Ash in my wood burning stove as being a harmful carcinogen. There's also an art to starting a fire without getting a backdraft and getting smoke in your home. A few tips would be to make sure you're burning good quality wood that's been properly seasoned, seasoning firewood is also an art. When you need to empty the ash into the tray burn the fire at hotter than normal to deplete all of the carbon so all you have to deal with is small particles of Ash. Keep the fire going in place the depleted Ash in the tray to cool don't try to move hot ash it would just become a cloud in the air. Set your furnace to run the fan for several hours after you empty the tray. I'm not joking on this one I've been doing it for the last five years wear some sort of facial covering a mask a bandana whatever over your mouth.