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>You’ve probably noticed how some of your colleagues take to leadership roles like a duck to water. They’re confident telling others what to do, and happy takin

>You’ve probably noticed how some of your colleagues take to leadership roles like a duck to water. They’re confident telling others what to do, and happy taking on an ever-growing number of responsibilities. It couldn’t be more different for others: bossing around people feels awkward, and a nagging self-doubt shadows every decision. Why is the popular conception of leadership "bossing people around?" A healthier and more productive view of it is giving people what they need to grow and be successful. It's when a person guides someone and serves as a good steward for them, not exploiting them to whatever ends are at hand.

HarryHirsch 6y ago
Why is the popular conception of leadership "bossing people around? I guess this is because it dovetails with common experience. A leader these days doesn't have to have subject knowledge, he has connections and charisma and knows where to find experts that work for him. Just look at Elon Musk.
- btilly 6y ago
  I could believe the general thesis, but Elon Musk is just about the worst example that you could have picked. One of his outstanding characteristics is that he is constantly learning subject knowledge. Yes, he hires subject experts, but then he effectively arranges for private tutoring until he knows what he needs of what they know. Elon is a big believer that he should be able to do any job of anyone who he employs, and to a shocking extent it is actually true.
  - perilunar 6y ago
    Also he is severely lacking in charisma.
jerf 6y ago
"Why is the popular conception of leadership 'bossing people around?'" That's a good question I've been pondering for a while and still don't have a great answer for. I think some of it is that one degenerate form of leadership is to conflate it with authority, and a lot of people's experience with "leadership" is simply to receive orders. I actually would call what you describe as the ideal form of management, which is not leadership either. An ideal manager is not simply an authority user/abuser, but someone who clears obstacles out of the way and works to enhance the ones they are managing's skills, but ideally, only a bit of authority is deployed, and a manager may in fact exhibit no leadership at all. (For instance, corporate goals may simply come from higher up, or market pressures, or things other than "leadership" per se.) (There are also degenerate cases where raw, naked authority is in fact necessary and extensively used; I'm sure a lot of us worked a job at McDonalds or some rough equivalent and have memories of how much it was based on authority... fewer of us have experiences of managing in that environment and being directly exposed to the fact that it is just the only way to make it work, however distasteful you may find that fact.) For me, leadership should be reserved for the cases in which one is visibly leading, e.g., you start a new initiative somewhere, gather up people to voluntarily follow you by a variety of non-coercive means, and then hold the group together in a variety of very context-sensitive means. True leadership is rare. Authority is inescapable, good management is a gem to be treasured but still not that rare, but leadership is a rare thing. Most groups are held together by other bonds.
- philippoi 6y ago
  Some very interesting thoughts there. I agree with the gist of your views. Have you read any books in developing these thoughts? If so, what can you recommend?
- veddox 6y ago
  Some good thoughts there. Leadership skills can be valuable in a context where you have „hard“ authority, but the ultimate test of you as a leader is in groups where nobody is forced to follow you.
dnautics 6y ago
I think the statement is that some people shy away from leadership since they don't know how not to be bossy. Bossinesss isn't exploitation, it's a style of leadership -- giving orders (often orders that are too specific), taking down someone when something is not done in "just the right way", etc.
im3w1l 6y ago
Only a leader can boss people around. Thus it becomes an easily noticable symbol. Let's say in fiction you want to quickly establish who is the leader then you can use the symbol. Just like how you can use a car or watch to establish that someone is rich.
zo1 6y ago
Most teams aren't ideal, and a lot of times, you have to resort to just telling people what to do in order to get the ball rolling. It's like Maslow's hierarchy, but applied to teams. You first have to have a functioning team that completes it's basic needs (tasks) before you can move on to higher-order objectives such as "growth", "moral", strategic objectives, building confidence, training, etc. I think the important point is that the team/leadership of that team need to move past that basic point and grow in other needs.
hn_asker 6y ago
I think the popular conception comes form the fact that if you are a good leader, you want them to make decisions. From a management perspective, this means telling people what to do. Of course, leaders recognize that bossing people around isn't sustainable.
raldi 6y ago
My daughter's recently been into MasterChef Junior, where in a recent episode one of the kids appointed to be a team lead in a restaurant setting was attempting to perform the role by berating his team for their mistakes and insufficient productivity. Halfway through the spot, host Gordon Ramsey (whom he was apparently trying to emulate) intervened and afterwards, the kid started saying things like, "Hey, let me know if you're having trouble with the panisse cakes; I can help you out as soon as I'm done with these string beans." Good lesson for all of us.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
veddox 6y ago
I could‘t agree more. I also take issue with the assumption that everybody ought to be a leader, or at least try to be one. Apart from this being quite obviously impossibly, it shows a distressing lack of appreciation for all those team members who do not „lead“. Having lead multiple teams over the past years, I have become increasingly grateful for and respectful of team members who work quietly in the background, reliably doing jobs I often could not do myself. We do ourselves a major disservice when we only value those tasks which happen in the limelight. Having a good leader is important, but in a team that is only one task among many.
drewcoo 6y ago
Because most people have been taught to be bossed around by an authority? The lesson just needs to be reinforced over and over for years as a child in school and then later in the workplace.
qznc 6y ago
For a counter example, I read Buford is a very humble yet successful leader. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C._Buford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C._Buford

HarryHirsch 6y ago

Why is the popular conception of leadership "bossing people around? I guess this is because it dovetails with common experience. A leader these days doesn't have to have subject knowledge, he has connections and charisma and knows where to find experts that work for him. Just look at Elon Musk.

btilly 6y ago
I could believe the general thesis, but Elon Musk is just about the worst example that you could have picked. One of his outstanding characteristics is that he is constantly learning subject knowledge. Yes, he hires subject experts, but then he effectively arranges for private tutoring until he knows what he needs of what they know. Elon is a big believer that he should be able to do any job of anyone who he employs, and to a shocking extent it is actually true.
- perilunar 6y ago
  Also he is severely lacking in charisma.

jerf 6y ago

"Why is the popular conception of leadership 'bossing people around?'" That's a good question I've been pondering for a while and still don't have a great answer for. I think some of it is that one degenerate form of leadership is to conflate it with authority, and a lot of people's experience with "leadership" is simply to receive orders. I actually would call what you describe as the ideal form of management, which is not leadership either. An ideal manager is not simply an authority user/abuser, but someone who clears obstacles out of the way and works to enhance the ones they are managing's skills, but ideally, only a bit of authority is deployed, and a manager may in fact exhibit no leadership at all. (For instance, corporate goals may simply come from higher up, or market pressures, or things other than "leadership" per se.) (There are also degenerate cases where raw, naked authority is in fact necessary and extensively used; I'm sure a lot of us worked a job at McDonalds or some rough equivalent and have memories of how much it was based on authority... fewer of us have experiences of managing in that environment and being directly exposed to the fact that it is just the only way to make it work, however distasteful you may find that fact.) For me, leadership should be reserved for the cases in which one is visibly leading, e.g., you start a new initiative somewhere, gather up people to voluntarily follow you by a variety of non-coercive means, and then hold the group together in a variety of very context-sensitive means. True leadership is rare. Authority is inescapable, good management is a gem to be treasured but still not that rare, but leadership is a rare thing. Most groups are held together by other bonds.

philippoi 6y ago
Some very interesting thoughts there. I agree with the gist of your views. Have you read any books in developing these thoughts? If so, what can you recommend?
veddox 6y ago
Some good thoughts there. Leadership skills can be valuable in a context where you have „hard“ authority, but the ultimate test of you as a leader is in groups where nobody is forced to follow you.

dnautics 6y ago

I think the statement is that some people shy away from leadership since they don't know how not to be bossy. Bossinesss isn't exploitation, it's a style of leadership -- giving orders (often orders that are too specific), taking down someone when something is not done in "just the right way", etc.

im3w1l 6y ago

Only a leader can boss people around. Thus it becomes an easily noticable symbol. Let's say in fiction you want to quickly establish who is the leader then you can use the symbol. Just like how you can use a car or watch to establish that someone is rich.

zo1 6y ago

Most teams aren't ideal, and a lot of times, you have to resort to just telling people what to do in order to get the ball rolling. It's like Maslow's hierarchy, but applied to teams. You first have to have a functioning team that completes it's basic needs (tasks) before you can move on to higher-order objectives such as "growth", "moral", strategic objectives, building confidence, training, etc. I think the important point is that the team/leadership of that team need to move past that basic point and grow in other needs.

hn_asker 6y ago

I think the popular conception comes form the fact that if you are a good leader, you want them to make decisions. From a management perspective, this means telling people what to do. Of course, leaders recognize that bossing people around isn't sustainable.

raldi 6y ago

My daughter's recently been into MasterChef Junior, where in a recent episode one of the kids appointed to be a team lead in a restaurant setting was attempting to perform the role by berating his team for their mistakes and insufficient productivity. Halfway through the spot, host Gordon Ramsey (whom he was apparently trying to emulate) intervened and afterwards, the kid started saying things like, "Hey, let me know if you're having trouble with the panisse cakes; I can help you out as soon as I'm done with these string beans." Good lesson for all of us.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

veddox 6y ago

I could‘t agree more. I also take issue with the assumption that everybody ought to be a leader, or at least try to be one. Apart from this being quite obviously impossibly, it shows a distressing lack of appreciation for all those team members who do not „lead“. Having lead multiple teams over the past years, I have become increasingly grateful for and respectful of team members who work quietly in the background, reliably doing jobs I often could not do myself. We do ourselves a major disservice when we only value those tasks which happen in the limelight. Having a good leader is important, but in a team that is only one task among many.

drewcoo 6y ago

Because most people have been taught to be bossed around by an authority? The lesson just needs to be reinforced over and over for years as a child in school and then later in the workplace.

qznc 6y ago

For a counter example, I read Buford is a very humble yet successful leader. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C._Buford https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C._Buford