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Maybe you could use your experience to propose a system (whether funding vehicle restrictions or proper incentives) for that not to happen in this case? I think

Maybe you could use your experience to propose a system (whether funding vehicle restrictions or proper incentives) for that not to happen in this case? I think we’d all be excited by that. How can we avoid spending money on lobbyists? Maybe the structure should be more VC-like?

rusk 6y ago
No point arguing with ideology.
- CryptoPunk 6y ago
  It is arguably quite ideological to insist that a large monopolistic bureaucracy, or a conglomeration of them - e.g. the EU - will be efficient in allocating vast amounts of resources when basic game and microeconomic theory suggests otherwise. Still, an argument for state subsidies, despite some inevitable degree of inefficiency, can be made.
  - rusk 6y ago
    Point was that despite repeated successes with this style of investment the libhurdurians still insist it’s a bad idea, totally blind to the fact that lassaiz affaire is just as prone to degeneration. It’s ideology as much as any other approach and when you find people insisting on it without any concrete examples it’s just plain ideology you’re dealing with and there’s just no point wasting your time.
    - CryptoPunk 6y ago
      I'm a libhurdurian and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. A public goods argument can be made for strategic investments. I also don't think it's been conclusively shown that there have been "repeated successes with this style of investment". Demonstrating that would require knowing what the opportunity cost of the spending for these projects was, which is impossible. Claiming it's an open-and-shut case that these kinds of investments will yield positive results is just as ideological as you accuse dissenters of being.
      - rusk 6y ago
        I’m not claiming it’s open and shut. Every time something like this comes around you have all these guys giving out. I don’t say free market doesn’t work in all cases but just that it doesn’t work in all cases. Libertarianism is a dead end. Also BSD Unix.
        CryptoPunk 6y ago
        Your earlier statement, that "lassaiz affaire is just as prone to degeneration" is just as ideological as anything you responded to. Neither of you have proven your case. It's entirely possible that you are right, and there's a factual basis for your assertion. It's also entirely possible that the party you are in opposition to is right, and there's a factual basis for theirs. Neither point has been supported in this discussion with anything beyond rhetoric.
lostmsu 6y ago
An option to try is making a mixed merit+vote system instead of just voting.
hndudette2 6y ago
Putting structure aside for now (although I agree we want an answer to that), I don't see why we even want governments allocating capital to projects like this in the first place when the space is already very competitive with loads of private money. It seems like a classic case of big government doing big government things to justify their own existence.
jabl 6y ago
"More VC like" has been proposed by Mariana Mazzucato. If the state invests in a startup/spinoff, the state should get equity in return rather than just some lofty words about future jobs or such. Not for the purpose of creating long time state owned companies, but for cashing out when/if the investment is successful, just like VC's. This would both provide the state with money, removing the need to raise that same money via taxes, and hopefully also better align the incentives of the funding organisation by providing measurable goals.

rusk 6y ago

No point arguing with ideology.

CryptoPunk 6y ago
It is arguably quite ideological to insist that a large monopolistic bureaucracy, or a conglomeration of them - e.g. the EU - will be efficient in allocating vast amounts of resources when basic game and microeconomic theory suggests otherwise. Still, an argument for state subsidies, despite some inevitable degree of inefficiency, can be made.
- rusk 6y ago
  Point was that despite repeated successes with this style of investment the libhurdurians still insist it’s a bad idea, totally blind to the fact that lassaiz affaire is just as prone to degeneration. It’s ideology as much as any other approach and when you find people insisting on it without any concrete examples it’s just plain ideology you’re dealing with and there’s just no point wasting your time.
  - CryptoPunk 6y ago
    I'm a libhurdurian and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. A public goods argument can be made for strategic investments. I also don't think it's been conclusively shown that there have been "repeated successes with this style of investment". Demonstrating that would require knowing what the opportunity cost of the spending for these projects was, which is impossible. Claiming it's an open-and-shut case that these kinds of investments will yield positive results is just as ideological as you accuse dissenters of being.
    - rusk 6y ago
      I’m not claiming it’s open and shut. Every time something like this comes around you have all these guys giving out. I don’t say free market doesn’t work in all cases but just that it doesn’t work in all cases. Libertarianism is a dead end. Also BSD Unix.
      - CryptoPunk 6y ago
        Your earlier statement, that "lassaiz affaire is just as prone to degeneration" is just as ideological as anything you responded to. Neither of you have proven your case. It's entirely possible that you are right, and there's a factual basis for your assertion. It's also entirely possible that the party you are in opposition to is right, and there's a factual basis for theirs. Neither point has been supported in this discussion with anything beyond rhetoric.

lostmsu 6y ago

An option to try is making a mixed merit+vote system instead of just voting.

hndudette2 6y ago

Putting structure aside for now (although I agree we want an answer to that), I don't see why we even want governments allocating capital to projects like this in the first place when the space is already very competitive with loads of private money. It seems like a classic case of big government doing big government things to justify their own existence.

jabl 6y ago

"More VC like" has been proposed by Mariana Mazzucato. If the state invests in a startup/spinoff, the state should get equity in return rather than just some lofty words about future jobs or such. Not for the purpose of creating long time state owned companies, but for cashing out when/if the investment is successful, just like VC's. This would both provide the state with money, removing the need to raise that same money via taxes, and hopefully also better align the incentives of the funding organisation by providing measurable goals.