5 ms·

Facts won't fix this: experts on how to fight America's disinformation crisis

34 points by scottbucks 6y ago

thatguy0900 6y ago
It seems kind of disengenuous to blame this on trump and right wing outlets. They definetely pushed distrust of the media along, but how long could the media really expect to keep getting away with things like Iraq wmds? It seems like things were going to reach this point sooner or later anyway when mainstream media started agreeing to become propaganda machines
- fumar 6y ago
  Have you read Manufacturing Consent? I recommend reading it for insight into media and propaganda.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- ecf 6y ago
  One thing I hope is obliterated into history after this presidency is the notion that “both parties are the same”. I’m seriously getting a laugh out of these conservatives who are struggling to make ends meet but have voted Mitch McConnell into office for 35 years. The same guy who just laughed in their face regarding $2k relief checks for them. I remember reading a comment by someone that went something along the lines “I’ve voted for Mitch my entire life mostly because he opposes the democrat agenda” and I can’t help but get a little bit of joy when they get what they deserve.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    Both parties are beholden to the wishes of corporations over natural persons. About 5% of the Democrats holding national office don’t fall into this category, but they’re so few in number they can be ignored when making a statement about the party as a whole.
    - ecf 6y ago
      Both parties don’t have politicians who are actively tweeting about their rights being infringed upon because they are being asked to simply wear a mask.
      - pmiller2 6y ago
        That’s true. But, it doesn’t make things any better knowing we have the choice between a bad party and a worse party. First past the post, the Electoral College, winner take all style contests, and campaign finance law all work together to keep them both in power. Believe me, I’d love to get rid of the ultra right wing party and the slightly less right wing party.
      - rangoon626 6y ago
        Then you don’t see it. Middle East terrorism has been replaced as “the thing” and medical terrorism is what has replaced it. Global warming was too unconvincing, so it seems like TPTB picked this instead. It’s not about the masks, it’s about being stuck with this for two decades as they try to frighten and terrorize everyone with medical diseases, which allows the government to do whatever they want unopposed. Non-compliance with the masks is usually people protesting this more than they are trying to be inconsiderate to other people. Also, if you think a crappy cloth mask is going to protect anyone else, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. (For the record, I would have a different opinion if our government had mobilized producing actual medical grade masks and mandated that.) This crisis may be even scarier than the Middle East terrorism thing though, because it encourages self righteous dingbats to rat on their neighbors and use the state against their neighbors. It’s all in our own backyard now. And people are doing exactly what the party wants, and it looks to me like like how the neighbors and kids behaved in 1984. And there’s endless obscure diseases they can highlight that everyone mostly just glossed over before. COVID-19 headlines starts to run flat? Just highlight a new strain of it to whip the fervor up again... oh wait. You’ll surely call me a conspiracy theorist, even though I’m simply applying that I learned from the Middle East terrorism situation on to this one, but I don’t care. I have already seen this for what it is, a real disease but being hijacked as a tool to manipulate and control people, and have moved on. Don’t be fooled, there’s to be no “back to normal.” Ever. The mask non-comply-ers are simply having a hard time of letting go of the life they knew. You have to be either incredibly base or willfully ignorant to not understand and have empathy with your fellow citizens.
- dudeithinkBLM 6y ago
  Disengenous is correct and the media blows their credibility yet again every time they attempt to politicize this. I read this and thought: oh, another article where the author attempts to say people that don't wholeheartedly trust the mainstream media and their fact checkers are overly emotional conspiracy theorists. This has continued to backfire spectacularly and push their audience away from them and will continue to do so. People aren't stupid. The only thing missing (thanks to Big Tech censorship) is a strong independent media using actual journalism to deliver information instead of clearly biased reporting.
- clouddrover 6y ago
  > It seems kind of disengenuous to blame this on trump Why? Trump's posts to Twitter are mostly lies. Have a look: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump He's still lying about the results of the election. He claims repeatedly that it was a "rigged election", that the election was "the biggest SCAM in our nation’s history", and that really he "won big" "in a landslide". All of these claims are false. Trump has demonstrated that he simply doesn't care what's true. It's banana republic stuff.
  - thatguy0900 6y ago
    People have been pointing out the media lying before trump got in office. He definitely pushed that in a big way to the mainstream, and is lying about a lot of things himself, but the media couldnt have gotten away with creating narratives scot free forever.
  - rangoon626 6y ago
    There was election fraud though. https://hereistheevidence.com/ https://hereistheevidence.com/
    - clouddrover 6y ago
      Uh huh. And how many court cases about this supposedly fraudulent election have succeeded? You know, legal proceedings in which you must meet an actual standard of evidence.
      - rangoon626 6y ago
        When I read this, I had to do a double-check and make sure I wasn't on reddit
        clouddrover 6y ago
        So zero court cases then.
zug_zug 6y ago
I think this is an important topic, but couching it in this brief cultural moment or one political party is cutting scope a lot. For example, rather than rants and raves about a particular ex-president or party, there are plenty of highly-auditable voting systems, which I remember being pretty vocal about 10 years ago. Things like paper trails matter a lot [1]. Theoretically, both sides should be in perfect agreement on the importance of that... >>> “If only 20% of the population is like, ‘You’re not my president, I’m going to double down on my mask resistance,’ or ‘I’m going to continue to have parties over the holidays,’ that means we are going to be even less likely to bring this thing under control,” No. I think this kind of whining is only giving/attributing power to the losing fraction. 30% of Americans still supported Nixon even AFTER he got caught at watergate. Certainly 30% of Americans were unhappy about desegregation in those areas. Too bad for them. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_auditable_voting_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_auditable_voting_sy...
- pmiller2 6y ago
  The difference here is that those 20-30% who resist public health measures to combat COVID have actual power to hurt the rest of us, by spreading the disease.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
Wouldn't the same intrinsic dismissal of "election officials" described I'm the article apply to the use of "experts" in the article's title?
- wool_gather 6y ago
  Sure, but the people who are disinformed aren't the target here anyways: they don't believe anything needs to be "fixed" in the first place.
LatteLazy 6y ago
It's pretty well proven that even scientists don't change their minds when presented with new evidence. Instead, you have to wait for the existing people to literally die out. Then a new generation can have new ideas. Progress is a matter of time and attrition, like a glacier moving. It's not a matter of logic and openness and evidence and debate. We need to wait for people who believe whatever Facebook/Fox shows them to die, they will never stop believing it as long as they draw breath. https://news.mit.edu/2019/life-science-funding-researchers-die-0829 https://news.mit.edu/2019/life-science-funding-researchers-d...
- netizen-9748 6y ago
  Speaking as a scientist, this is absolutely true. It's hard for me to change opinion. I generally need multiple repeated exposures do different instances of evidence. Some people are more firm in their ideas and this is a concept I try to keep in mind.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    The only trick I've found is to try not to have any opinion at all. I'd love to hear if anyone has a better idea, I hate the idea that people younger than me will just have to wait me out and politely tolerate my wrongness... I HAVE adjusted my options on a few matters (BLM, gun rights, bail requirements). And I'm quite proud of that! I think I have a bit of a fear of empathy which holds me back, but enough of my self diagnosis!
    - netizen-9748 6y ago
      I'm glad to hear that! I think keeping the idea in mind that we could be wrong is important, and not just about small things but we may be wrong about anything. I think keeping an opinion is okay, as long as it remains flexible. But then again, that's just my opinion :)
sunstone 6y ago
Sure but what will fix it is a tax payer funded, independent (like the courts), news organization. Almost every other liberal democracy has something like that. It's time for the US to get with the program.
- netizen-9748 6y ago
  Just to play devil's advocate, while some statements are easier to judge how do we determine what is true? This can be a difficult problem to solve.
raarts 6y ago
Looking at the US from the outside, it seems there are two increasingly separated views of what is true and what isn't. Each is in their own bubble. Both bubbles are around the same size. This article is from an outlet in one bubble labeling everything from the other bubble as misinformation, and asking rethorically: 'can the divide be healed?' Without realizing they actually mean: 'how can we make them understand they are wrong?' This happens on both sides. Until both bubbles will ask themselves: 'is it possible the other side has some points, so let's give it a good look', there will be NO healing at all. And actually both sides are as often wrong as they are right on many issues.
- joecot 6y ago
  Hi there! I'm in the "Left" bubble. What are some of these points the "Right" bubble has that I should be taking a good look at?
  - raarts 6y ago
    That depends on your interests. Being from the Netherlands, where racism and slavery are less of a hot topic compared to the US, I was interested, and I can offer you some things that I personally found interesting. For example this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqVNPwsLNo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqVNPwsLNo (esp @24:00). And Thomas Sowell's book on the history of slavery, here's an interesting part of the audiobook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuAf8XL2xQI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuAf8XL2xQI
    - joecot 6y ago
      I'll watch both eventually, but the first note from that interview at 24 minutes is that the breakdown of the black family is a huge issue in the US. That kids are much more likely to grow up and commit crimes if there's no father figure in the house. And he's right, it is. But he skips the reasons behind them, and comes to the incorrect conclusion that that's not a "white cop's fault". 1. Those families often don't have dads because they were arrested on minor drug offenses, or killed by said cops. 2. America's social safety net is packed full of means testing. That includes means testing on welfare, which leads to broken families because there will be significantly less public assistance if there's a father in the picture than if there isn't.
egberts1 6y ago
Concise messaging matters. #headduck

34 points by scottbucks 6y ago

It seems kind of disengenuous to blame this on trump and right wing outlets. They definetely pushed distrust of the media along, but how long could the media really expect to keep getting away with things like Iraq wmds? It seems like things were going to reach this point sooner or later anyway when mainstream media started agreeing to become propaganda machines

fumar 6y ago
Have you read Manufacturing Consent? I recommend reading it for insight into media and propaganda.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ecf 6y ago
One thing I hope is obliterated into history after this presidency is the notion that “both parties are the same”. I’m seriously getting a laugh out of these conservatives who are struggling to make ends meet but have voted Mitch McConnell into office for 35 years. The same guy who just laughed in their face regarding $2k relief checks for them. I remember reading a comment by someone that went something along the lines “I’ve voted for Mitch my entire life mostly because he opposes the democrat agenda” and I can’t help but get a little bit of joy when they get what they deserve.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Both parties are beholden to the wishes of corporations over natural persons. About 5% of the Democrats holding national office don’t fall into this category, but they’re so few in number they can be ignored when making a statement about the party as a whole.
  - ecf 6y ago
    Both parties don’t have politicians who are actively tweeting about their rights being infringed upon because they are being asked to simply wear a mask.
    - pmiller2 6y ago
      That’s true. But, it doesn’t make things any better knowing we have the choice between a bad party and a worse party. First past the post, the Electoral College, winner take all style contests, and campaign finance law all work together to keep them both in power. Believe me, I’d love to get rid of the ultra right wing party and the slightly less right wing party.
    - rangoon626 6y ago
      Then you don’t see it. Middle East terrorism has been replaced as “the thing” and medical terrorism is what has replaced it. Global warming was too unconvincing, so it seems like TPTB picked this instead. It’s not about the masks, it’s about being stuck with this for two decades as they try to frighten and terrorize everyone with medical diseases, which allows the government to do whatever they want unopposed. Non-compliance with the masks is usually people protesting this more than they are trying to be inconsiderate to other people. Also, if you think a crappy cloth mask is going to protect anyone else, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. (For the record, I would have a different opinion if our government had mobilized producing actual medical grade masks and mandated that.) This crisis may be even scarier than the Middle East terrorism thing though, because it encourages self righteous dingbats to rat on their neighbors and use the state against their neighbors. It’s all in our own backyard now. And people are doing exactly what the party wants, and it looks to me like like how the neighbors and kids behaved in 1984. And there’s endless obscure diseases they can highlight that everyone mostly just glossed over before. COVID-19 headlines starts to run flat? Just highlight a new strain of it to whip the fervor up again... oh wait. You’ll surely call me a conspiracy theorist, even though I’m simply applying that I learned from the Middle East terrorism situation on to this one, but I don’t care. I have already seen this for what it is, a real disease but being hijacked as a tool to manipulate and control people, and have moved on. Don’t be fooled, there’s to be no “back to normal.” Ever. The mask non-comply-ers are simply having a hard time of letting go of the life they knew. You have to be either incredibly base or willfully ignorant to not understand and have empathy with your fellow citizens.
dudeithinkBLM 6y ago
Disengenous is correct and the media blows their credibility yet again every time they attempt to politicize this. I read this and thought: oh, another article where the author attempts to say people that don't wholeheartedly trust the mainstream media and their fact checkers are overly emotional conspiracy theorists. This has continued to backfire spectacularly and push their audience away from them and will continue to do so. People aren't stupid. The only thing missing (thanks to Big Tech censorship) is a strong independent media using actual journalism to deliver information instead of clearly biased reporting.
clouddrover 6y ago
> It seems kind of disengenuous to blame this on trump Why? Trump's posts to Twitter are mostly lies. Have a look: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump He's still lying about the results of the election. He claims repeatedly that it was a "rigged election", that the election was "the biggest SCAM in our nation’s history", and that really he "won big" "in a landslide". All of these claims are false. Trump has demonstrated that he simply doesn't care what's true. It's banana republic stuff.
- thatguy0900 6y ago
  People have been pointing out the media lying before trump got in office. He definitely pushed that in a big way to the mainstream, and is lying about a lot of things himself, but the media couldnt have gotten away with creating narratives scot free forever.
- rangoon626 6y ago
  There was election fraud though. https://hereistheevidence.com/ https://hereistheevidence.com/
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    Uh huh. And how many court cases about this supposedly fraudulent election have succeeded? You know, legal proceedings in which you must meet an actual standard of evidence.
    - rangoon626 6y ago
      When I read this, I had to do a double-check and make sure I wasn't on reddit
      - clouddrover 6y ago
        So zero court cases then.

zug_zug 6y ago

I think this is an important topic, but couching it in this brief cultural moment or one political party is cutting scope a lot. For example, rather than rants and raves about a particular ex-president or party, there are plenty of highly-auditable voting systems, which I remember being pretty vocal about 10 years ago. Things like paper trails matter a lot [1]. Theoretically, both sides should be in perfect agreement on the importance of that... >>> “If only 20% of the population is like, ‘You’re not my president, I’m going to double down on my mask resistance,’ or ‘I’m going to continue to have parties over the holidays,’ that means we are going to be even less likely to bring this thing under control,” No. I think this kind of whining is only giving/attributing power to the losing fraction. 30% of Americans still supported Nixon even AFTER he got caught at watergate. Certainly 30% of Americans were unhappy about desegregation in those areas. Too bad for them. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_auditable_voting_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_auditable_voting_sy...

pmiller2 6y ago
The difference here is that those 20-30% who resist public health measures to combat COVID have actual power to hurt the rest of us, by spreading the disease.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

Wouldn't the same intrinsic dismissal of "election officials" described I'm the article apply to the use of "experts" in the article's title?

wool_gather 6y ago
Sure, but the people who are disinformed aren't the target here anyways: they don't believe anything needs to be "fixed" in the first place.

LatteLazy 6y ago

It's pretty well proven that even scientists don't change their minds when presented with new evidence. Instead, you have to wait for the existing people to literally die out. Then a new generation can have new ideas. Progress is a matter of time and attrition, like a glacier moving. It's not a matter of logic and openness and evidence and debate. We need to wait for people who believe whatever Facebook/Fox shows them to die, they will never stop believing it as long as they draw breath. https://news.mit.edu/2019/life-science-funding-researchers-die-0829 https://news.mit.edu/2019/life-science-funding-researchers-d...

netizen-9748 6y ago
Speaking as a scientist, this is absolutely true. It's hard for me to change opinion. I generally need multiple repeated exposures do different instances of evidence. Some people are more firm in their ideas and this is a concept I try to keep in mind.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  The only trick I've found is to try not to have any opinion at all. I'd love to hear if anyone has a better idea, I hate the idea that people younger than me will just have to wait me out and politely tolerate my wrongness... I HAVE adjusted my options on a few matters (BLM, gun rights, bail requirements). And I'm quite proud of that! I think I have a bit of a fear of empathy which holds me back, but enough of my self diagnosis!
  - netizen-9748 6y ago
    I'm glad to hear that! I think keeping the idea in mind that we could be wrong is important, and not just about small things but we may be wrong about anything. I think keeping an opinion is okay, as long as it remains flexible. But then again, that's just my opinion :)

sunstone 6y ago

Sure but what will fix it is a tax payer funded, independent (like the courts), news organization. Almost every other liberal democracy has something like that. It's time for the US to get with the program.

netizen-9748 6y ago
Just to play devil's advocate, while some statements are easier to judge how do we determine what is true? This can be a difficult problem to solve.

raarts 6y ago

Looking at the US from the outside, it seems there are two increasingly separated views of what is true and what isn't. Each is in their own bubble. Both bubbles are around the same size. This article is from an outlet in one bubble labeling everything from the other bubble as misinformation, and asking rethorically: 'can the divide be healed?' Without realizing they actually mean: 'how can we make them understand they are wrong?' This happens on both sides. Until both bubbles will ask themselves: 'is it possible the other side has some points, so let's give it a good look', there will be NO healing at all. And actually both sides are as often wrong as they are right on many issues.

joecot 6y ago
Hi there! I'm in the "Left" bubble. What are some of these points the "Right" bubble has that I should be taking a good look at?
- raarts 6y ago
  That depends on your interests. Being from the Netherlands, where racism and slavery are less of a hot topic compared to the US, I was interested, and I can offer you some things that I personally found interesting. For example this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqVNPwsLNo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqVNPwsLNo (esp @24:00). And Thomas Sowell's book on the history of slavery, here's an interesting part of the audiobook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuAf8XL2xQI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuAf8XL2xQI
  - joecot 6y ago
    I'll watch both eventually, but the first note from that interview at 24 minutes is that the breakdown of the black family is a huge issue in the US. That kids are much more likely to grow up and commit crimes if there's no father figure in the house. And he's right, it is. But he skips the reasons behind them, and comes to the incorrect conclusion that that's not a "white cop's fault". 1. Those families often don't have dads because they were arrested on minor drug offenses, or killed by said cops. 2. America's social safety net is packed full of means testing. That includes means testing on welfare, which leads to broken families because there will be significantly less public assistance if there's a father in the picture than if there isn't.

egberts1 6y ago

Concise messaging matters. #headduck