4 ms·

I don't know why you are being downvoted. It's a very reasonable way to think. We should have a policy of reciprocity with China. This must be discussed urgent

I don't know why you are being downvoted. It's a very reasonable way to think. We should have a policy of reciprocity with China. This must be discussed urgently.

mantas 6y ago
At the same time, EU is about to sign an investment agreement with China. And some top level EU politicians claim that China and USA are equal evil. As a citizen of EU member, all I can say is SAD :(
- echelon 6y ago
  I'm curious about this. Could you provide a link where I can read more?
  - mantas 6y ago
    DDG for „EU-China investment treaty“. There's lots of angles to it and I'd recommend to read about it in at least a few different sources.
echelon 6y ago
Anti-China rhetoric gets downvoted with fervor on HN. I also agree with OP. It's one of the most pressing issues for our country and for democratic nations throughout the world. I'd be happy if it were Japan, Korea, or India (or a democratic China) rising to #1, but the CCP being in that slot is scary. The thought of having an oppressive regime become the world's most powerful economic force is unsettling.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
  As most nations today, China has its own troll farms to foster positive sentiment. Sadly, I am sure that affects HN as well. Come to think of it, US government does not appear to officially use them. Thus far I only saw allegations of various companies using them ( and I am sure they are ). I did hear various LEOs troll forums ( but that is for reasons other than saying government is awesome ). https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/leaked-docs-reveal-how-chinas-army-paid-internet-trolls-helped-censor-covid-19 https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/leaked-docs-reveal-how-ch...
  - simonh 6y ago
    There have definitely been cases of astroturfing and vote bombing in the west, but it seems to be much less common these days because it almost always seems to get found out. If you think about it, the employees doing it aren't zombies, as soon as they leave the company they've got no reason stay loyal. News organisations are all over stories like that. The resulting bad press can be catastrophic for a company, far worse than any conceivable benefit from the behaviour itself. For governments in democracies it's even worse, this is why most government conspiracy theories don't make sense. Why would government employees or even soldiers criminalise themselves to benefit a political party or president they might not even personally support? Once particular president is out of office, there's no reason to stay personally loyal to them so leaders can only rely on people's loyalty to the nation as a whole. Conversely the CCP simply suppresses all discussion about the suppression, and disappears anyone who becomes too problematic. There are no divided political loyalties and no other political faction or press to go to. What's anyone going to do?
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > There have definitely been cases of astroturfing and vote bombing in the west, but it seems to be much less common these days because it almost always seems to get found out. Or, it seems less common because those doing it have improved over time so that it almost never gets found out when done by the real pros, only when done by relative incompetents whose visible failures shield the competent astroturfers from suspicion. The only thing that would make it seem common is getting found out frequently, after all.
      - simonh 6y ago
        Oh sure, it’s a matter of balancing probabilities. We can never be certain, since it’s not possible to prove a negative. Still, if we know there are balancing factors such as risks from press investigation, whistle blowers, accidental leaks, etc and still we see extremely low or no cases hitting the press, then it seems the balance of probability is that it’s relatively rare. Compared to the extremely obvious, blatant, continuous Astro turfing, comment suppression, vote bombing and harassment we see by the authorities in China. Let’s not make any false equivalences.
- zepto 6y ago
  For once I find myself in complete agreement with you. The only reason I have sympathy for Apple in this situation is that at the time they began their investment in China, the US and the West in general believed that China was on a path to liberalization and genuinely wanted to support them as a global ally. It’s not going to be easy to disentangle from that.
  - echelon 6y ago
    I know we frequently disagree about Apple, but I imagine we see eye to eye about more things than not. I also agree that Apple and other companies may have waded into this water without realizing the changing tide. We might have been too hopeful of a good outcome, or simply didn't think long term enough. A lot of folks pictured a more liberal China, as you mention. It's a tricky situation.

I don't know why you are being downvoted. It's a very reasonable way to think. We should have a policy of reciprocity with China. This must be discussed urgently.

mantas 6y ago

At the same time, EU is about to sign an investment agreement with China. And some top level EU politicians claim that China and USA are equal evil. As a citizen of EU member, all I can say is SAD :(

echelon 6y ago
I'm curious about this. Could you provide a link where I can read more?
- mantas 6y ago
  DDG for „EU-China investment treaty“. There's lots of angles to it and I'd recommend to read about it in at least a few different sources.

echelon 6y ago

Anti-China rhetoric gets downvoted with fervor on HN. I also agree with OP. It's one of the most pressing issues for our country and for democratic nations throughout the world. I'd be happy if it were Japan, Korea, or India (or a democratic China) rising to #1, but the CCP being in that slot is scary. The thought of having an oppressive regime become the world's most powerful economic force is unsettling.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
As most nations today, China has its own troll farms to foster positive sentiment. Sadly, I am sure that affects HN as well. Come to think of it, US government does not appear to officially use them. Thus far I only saw allegations of various companies using them ( and I am sure they are ). I did hear various LEOs troll forums ( but that is for reasons other than saying government is awesome ). https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/leaked-docs-reveal-how-chinas-army-paid-internet-trolls-helped-censor-covid-19 https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/leaked-docs-reveal-how-ch...
- simonh 6y ago
  There have definitely been cases of astroturfing and vote bombing in the west, but it seems to be much less common these days because it almost always seems to get found out. If you think about it, the employees doing it aren't zombies, as soon as they leave the company they've got no reason stay loyal. News organisations are all over stories like that. The resulting bad press can be catastrophic for a company, far worse than any conceivable benefit from the behaviour itself. For governments in democracies it's even worse, this is why most government conspiracy theories don't make sense. Why would government employees or even soldiers criminalise themselves to benefit a political party or president they might not even personally support? Once particular president is out of office, there's no reason to stay personally loyal to them so leaders can only rely on people's loyalty to the nation as a whole. Conversely the CCP simply suppresses all discussion about the suppression, and disappears anyone who becomes too problematic. There are no divided political loyalties and no other political faction or press to go to. What's anyone going to do?
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > There have definitely been cases of astroturfing and vote bombing in the west, but it seems to be much less common these days because it almost always seems to get found out. Or, it seems less common because those doing it have improved over time so that it almost never gets found out when done by the real pros, only when done by relative incompetents whose visible failures shield the competent astroturfers from suspicion. The only thing that would make it seem common is getting found out frequently, after all.
    - simonh 6y ago
      Oh sure, it’s a matter of balancing probabilities. We can never be certain, since it’s not possible to prove a negative. Still, if we know there are balancing factors such as risks from press investigation, whistle blowers, accidental leaks, etc and still we see extremely low or no cases hitting the press, then it seems the balance of probability is that it’s relatively rare. Compared to the extremely obvious, blatant, continuous Astro turfing, comment suppression, vote bombing and harassment we see by the authorities in China. Let’s not make any false equivalences.
zepto 6y ago
For once I find myself in complete agreement with you. The only reason I have sympathy for Apple in this situation is that at the time they began their investment in China, the US and the West in general believed that China was on a path to liberalization and genuinely wanted to support them as a global ally. It’s not going to be easy to disentangle from that.
- echelon 6y ago
  I know we frequently disagree about Apple, but I imagine we see eye to eye about more things than not. I also agree that Apple and other companies may have waded into this water without realizing the changing tide. We might have been too hopeful of a good outcome, or simply didn't think long term enough. A lot of folks pictured a more liberal China, as you mention. It's a tricky situation.