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Eagle Cash
- max_ 6y agoInteresting. How does this thing solve the "double spend problem" [0]. Without needing network access? You usually need server communication in electronics payment systems to confirm payment & update account balances. How does Eagle Cash solve this problem? [0]: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/doublespending.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/doublespending.asp
- murderfs 6y agoYou trust the secure element, and if you think that's not enough, you reconcile spending logs and bring the wrath of the federal government on whoever was dumb enough to try.
- 0x426577617265 6y agoFunds are stored on the card and loaded from a kiosk.
- smhg 6y agoSomething similar existed in Belgium from 1995 to 2014 for small payments, called Proton [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_(bank_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_(bank_card)
- eecc 6y agoAlso Chipnik in NL, discontinued several years ago. Too fiddly, nobody worries about privacy any longer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipknip https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chipknip
- flemhans 6y agoAnd Danmønt in Denmark, 1991-2005. I think Sweden had one called Kash or something like that.
- fuzzy2 6y agoIn Germany, there's GeldKarte. Still relatively widely supported on public transportation ticket machines and cigarettes vending machines, so they can be used offline. I found it awesome to use with at-home recharging (with an appropriate card terminal) and use on trains. Often, the ticket machine would refuse coins or not have change. Electronic payment to the rescue! :) Unfortunately, its fate is already sealed with basically all banks having announced their withdrawal from the system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geldkarte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geldkarte
- alasdair_ 6y agoThey rely on the fact that the double spenders are easy to find and punish.
- max_ 6y agoSo security is maintained using violence? Not technology?
- murderfs 6y agoI find it hilarious that someone running a "fintech studio" doesn't understand this.
- est31 6y agoI think that's the entire point of any army :). In this instance I guess the military police would be responsible though. It's a centralized system, and every account holder is fully identified to the government (even with DNA samples IIRC). The kiosks likely keep the logs and upload them when a connection can be made. Then the data get collected and compared centrally, and any discrepancy would show up. At least that's how I understand the "batch processing" remark in the wiki page.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- eecc 6y agoWhat do you think society is all about? I can recommend Debt by the late David Graeber
- lucb1e 6y agoNot sure a whole book is needed, it seems fairly straightforward to show that society is based on threats of violence. If you don't pay someone, that someone can go to a judge. If you indeed did something illegal (e.g. if you did a double spend, money forgery, whatever) you should be declared guilty and ordered to pay the damages plus perhaps a fine. If you don't do that, the amount due will increase and eventually you get ordered to jail. If you don't go voluntarily, they will make you. Of course everything comes down to force and eventually violence in the end. Why else would you comply with things that don't please you? (Because you're an honest party, okay, and the vast majority of people are, but not everyone is in the privileged position where they have what they want without applying dishonesty.) Even if you think to solve it with technology, preventing a crime is indeed better than detecting and punishing one, but let's say it's impossible to detect the double spend ahead of time and your technological solution only finds out that there was a double spend after the fact. What's it going to do, block your card from now on? In the end, it will still have real world consequences for you. Taking away someone's card, through physical or technological means, it's all more or less the same thing.
- louwhopley 6y agoSimilar to many Mastercard/Visa cards. The electronic chip on the card is capable of actually storing the balance and then syncing it back when it reaches a terminal machine that’s connected to the internet. In my experience, many (most) chip-card based transport systems for busses or trains (eg tap n go) operates in this offline mode where it only syncs when you go to the kiosk to top it up. It uses cryptographic methods to securely store and update the balance. The chip itself is an embedded processor.
- sargun 6y agoHow do you solve the FLP problem? e.g. Kiosk->Device: Give me $100 Device: Subtract $100 from myself Device->Kiosk: Send $100 (fail) Alternatively, what if this happens the other direction?
- wyattpeak 6y agoAtomic transactions, as with any database. After sending the money, confirm that it arrived. If it didn't, undo the subtraction. That said, shoddy implementations of these systems often do fail in numerous ways. As an end-user, you really just have to live with it.
- sargun 6y agoWhat protocol guarantees that there is an atomic transaction, in the presence of faults, in such a system?
- lmz 6y agoThose cards typically store the last few transactions (e.g. [0] is an Android app that can display transit card usage history), so it should be possible to code idempotency into the card firmware. [0]: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.codebutler.farebot https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.codebutler...
- texse 6y agoTechnically FLP impossibility only applies to deterministic algorithms, not randomized ones, otherwise no consensus protocol would work. So you could imagine a complicated technical solution that could work (eg. treating everything as a big Raft cluster and using Raft's membership changes every time a device is connected / disconnected). In practice the solution is to realize that failures are rare (especially compared to events like the soldier simply misplacing the card), and to have a trusted human available to resolve any issues that do occur.
- lcabral 6y agoThis uses the same flow as many transportation cards (which in some countries can also be used to purchase goods). Essentially the card chip holds the debit amount it has (the user makes an initial transaction to load it, debiting the money from a debit/credit card or paying for directly with money) so that every time a transaction occurs, the value in card is altered directly. This system also has the potential of making transactions fully anonymous as no-one needs to know who the holder of the card is or where he spends his money.
- KirillPanov 6y agoThe card chips are issued by a trusted central authority and (supposedly) tamperproof. You can't "run EagleCash" on your laptop; it only runs on card chips issued by the military.
- sneak 6y ago> This method allows soldiers to purchase goods and services at U.S. military posts and canteens, without carrying cash, or manage their personal bank accounts while on deployment or in training. The program reduces the amount of American currency required overseas, reduces theft, saves thousands of man-hours in labor, helps reduce the risk of transporting cash in combat environments, and increases security and convenience for service members. It also prevents soldiers from being able to trade easily with anyone who isn't an authorized card terminal user.
- systemvoltage 6y agoIt doesn't prevent them from carrying physical cash. They can still do that.
- someperson 6y agoFamously instant ramen noodles is the currency of choice for people in prison: small, uniform and non-perishable. Just like every other society, in the absence of cash I'm sure soldiers have developed a bartering economy. Likely including to acquire drug/alcohol/tobacco products that may be otherwise banned. You sell me your old Nintendo Switch and I'll use my EagleCash card to buy you 100 packs of instant ramen at company store [1] prices. Also, if anybody has a somewhat-trusted human network, it's possible to do Hawala [2] transfers across different financial systems without any actual foreign exchange transactions across the boundaries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_store https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_store [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala
- eru 6y agoCouldn't soldiers also just use cash to augment their trading? Or is that specifically banned?
- sneak 6y agoHard to get much of your US bank account contents as USD cash when you're off on a military base enclave in some foreign land. It's less hard (but still expensive and inconvenient) to get it in the local currency. You're also capped at relatively small amounts (a few hundred bucks of local currency per day).
- KirillPanov 6y agoUnlike regular debit cards, the Eagle Cash is managed on-base, using batch processing which ensures that the cards remained useful even when connections to banks and credit unions State-side are severed. This is really the whole point, but it's buried in the third paragraph. These cards work when the internet and all other communication with the outside world are down. Replacing physical currency in that scenario is really difficult.
- a-dub 6y agomy laundry room in college used the same technology. sucks if you damage the card (by sitting on your wallet, for example).
- 1-6 6y agoOf maybe like electronic lunch chits. Once they go through the reader, it might 'burn the circuit' being equivalent to stamping a hole into the card.
- avian 6y agoBack in the days when public phone booths were still a thing, the local telecom introduced pre-paid chip cards that you used for paying for your call. They were widely advertised as “fraud proof” because the chip physically burned polyfuses on the silicon as credits were used up. You can never restore a card that ran out of credits that way, they said. It was simple to make a card insert and a circuit that just lied to the phone that a fuse was burned. They switched to a different system soon after.
- zapdrive 6y agoWith upcoming satellite internet projects (see Starlink), I think it will be highly unlikely to disconnect any army base totally from the internet. In such scenarios, any centralized service would be much more efficient, secure and convenient. Soldiers can also use cryptocurrencies for trade among themselves, without needing to carry cash.
- lnanek2 6y agoSo what about during war when the enemy may have shot down your sats? Your soldiers are still going to want to buy goods on base during their down time and morale will suffer if you just tell them the internet is down.
- zapdrive 6y agoHow many will they shoot down? SpaceX is launching them by hundreds every month. The end goal is 45000 satellites. And by shooting just a few, the enemy will maybe only slow down the internet, not turn it off completely. Let that sink in. They'll need 45000 missiles up shoot down every starlink satellite. Also, SpaceX will definitely be launching new ones as they are being shot down. So it's a very impractical approach.
- pram 6y agoHuh. I was in the Air Force from 2005-2010 and I literally never saw this. I was at LSA Anaconda in Iraq too (mentioned in the article) ... must be an Army thing?
- xedeon 6y agoIt was used in the Air Force as well. It was issued in Basic Training and deployed locations. https://www.dvidshub.net/image/44435/eagle-cash-has-landed-aor https://www.dvidshub.net/image/44435/eagle-cash-has-landed-a... https://www.af.mil/News/Photos/igphoto/2000452297/ https://www.af.mil/News/Photos/igphoto/2000452297/ https://www.afcent.af.mil/Units/332nd-Air-Expeditionary-Wing/Photos/igphoto/2001340770/ https://www.afcent.af.mil/Units/332nd-Air-Expeditionary-Wing...
- pram 6y agoI'm not denying it exists (it's obviously a thing) but when I went through basic, they had us bring a voided check to set up direct deposit. We never had anything like this. Also I used my USAA debit card with zero issues while deployed in Iraq/Afghanistan/Kyrgyzstan. Very strange!
- studius 6y agoEagle Cash makes me think of something related to the World Space Commission[1][2]. But, apparently the US Dept. of the Treasury[3] manages three kinds of payment cards, EZPay, EagleCash, and Navy Cash. Both the Army and Air Force use EagleCash[4][5]. There may have been some consolidation[6], but EZPay and Navy Cash still seem to have presence[7][8]. Note: previously there were four programs[9], once of which was Marine Cash. [1]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space:_1999 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space:_1999 [2]- https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jizp?Space-1999The-Thirty-year-Alternate-History https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jizp?Space-1999The-Thirty-year... [3]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-value_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-value_card [4]- https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/122557/eaglecash-dont-deploy-without-it/ https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/122557/eagle... [5]- https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/eaglecash/organizations.html https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/eaglecash/organizations.html [6]- https://www.usafmcom.army.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1938486/new-eaglecash-consolidates-dods-stored-value-cards/ https://www.usafmcom.army.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/1... [7]- https://fiscal.treasury.gov/ezpay/ https://fiscal.treasury.gov/ezpay/ [8]- https://fiscal.treasury.gov/navy-cash/ https://fiscal.treasury.gov/navy-cash/ [9]- https://www.secureidnews.com/news-item/us-military-relies-on-smart-cards-for-a-wide-range-of-stored-value-payments/ https://www.secureidnews.com/news-item/us-military-relies-on...
- josephkern 6y agoWait until you guys see the prices for the "AAFES POGS" on ebay ... Basically while you can use cash, coins are too heavy to justify shipping into country. AAFES instead prints "gift certificates" in the shape of a pog, in 0.05, 0.10, 0.25 denominations. The resale value on these is hilariously high ... these are federally issued mediums of exchange being currency except in name only. And only useable in deployed locations.
- gioscarab 6y agoThe word medium comes from latin, its plural is "media", not "mediums".
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Retric 6y agoWhile some sources agree with you: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/mediums https://www.thefreedictionary.com/mediums Both Media and Mediums are plural forms in common usage. Thus: https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/mediums https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/mediums has mediums variants: or media plural of medium ex: https://www.uspto.gov/kids/MiddleSchool-HowWellSoundTravels.pdf https://www.uspto.gov/kids/MiddleSchool-HowWellSoundTravels.... And really, English just evolves over time so these kind of rules don’t actually mean anything.
- gioscarab 6y agoHere in Italy (that is where the word was invented in the first place) that is considered a bad common mistake. Forgetting about the etymology or misusing a word is not what I would define as "evolution". We say multi-media, mass-media ecc. for a reason, for the same reason we don't say multi-mediums or mass-mediums.
- Retric 6y agoThat’s the thing, in English when enough people make a mistake it stops being a mistake.
- ggrelet 6y agoSimilar topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FeliCa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FeliCa
- ForHackernews 6y agoThis sounds like a better alternative to bitcoin! I guess it requires a trusted central authority, but for most users that's a feature not a bug, and it sounds like it has a load of advantages: - Faster transactions - Can work "offline" (to some extent) - No wasted energy calculating redundant sha256 - Able to rectify fraudulent transactions
- alisonkisk 6y agoWhat use case is there for this where it's better than bitcoin? This is just a local payment system, that's existed for centuries as scrip. ("On a computer" doesn't change the nature of it.) Centralization undermines the purpose of bitcoin.
- ForHackernews 6y ago> What use case is there for this where it's better than bitcoin? Any situation where you want to purchase legal goods or services? Or hold some money temporarily in a low-volatility cash-like form?
- geraldcombs 6y agoIt's backed by a nation-state that has carrier groups?
- H8crilA 6y agoLol you just described credit cards.
- ForHackernews 6y agoNo, because credit cards charge exorbitant interest rates. This is more analogous to electronic cash, since the value is stored on the card.
- Multicomp 6y agothis was tried in the UK in the late 90s (see !w Mondex) ... i sooo wish it was a thing today!
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- jpkoning 6y agoThe US military has had some innovative payments ideas. An occupying force prefers to use a money that 1) doesn't dollarize the nation they are occupying 2) can be tracked, thus thwarting black marketeers 3) is lightweight 4) if they lose, the enemy can't reuse it Unfortunately, dollar bills are bulky, infiltrate local economies, and aren't enemy-resistant. So we get innovations like EagleCash, which solves a lot of these problems. Other payments ideas emanating from the military include Military Payment Certificates (https://jpkoning.blogspot.com/2017/04/c-day-and-military-money.html https://jpkoning.blogspot.com/2017/04/c-day-and-military-mon...), overstamped currency ( https://twitter.com/jp_koning/status/1343874636480729088 https://twitter.com/jp_koning/status/1343874636480729088) and pogs (http://numispedia.org/AAFES/ http://numispedia.org/AAFES/).
- md_ 6y agoWhy is #1 a goal? I’m assuming because of some desire to maintain the independence of a central bank in the occupied country?
- Qub3d 6y agoI imagine part of it is reducing the incentive for nation state actors to engage in counterfeiting.[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdollar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdollar
- md_ 6y agoI don’t really buy that. USD is still sufficiently used (in cash) in high denominations. Reducing that usage to the point that it deters counterfeiting would presumably reduce the impact of the dollar globally, which is likely against the US’s national interest.
- jpkoning 6y agoThat's right. In the US's case, if it was protecting a weakened friendly country or trying to rebuild a not-so-friendly one, dollarizing the economy would have undermined the occupied government and interfered with the US's overall goals. Using cancellable paper certificates like MPC or a closed loop electronic system like EagleCash prevented leakage of US dollars into the local economy.
- alisonkisk 6y agoThis is an electronic form of "scrip". The risk is that it gives the script system owner control over the value of money. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip
- dibujante 6y agoWait until you see what you can use your metro card for in Taipei...
- lxgr 6y agoMany countries have (or used to have) similar stored-value cards. They are really useful for some use cases: Given that they are very cash-like (transferable, anonymous unless registered), they are usually available to foreigners and minors without any formalities. Japan‘s version could at one point even be used to purchase games in Nintendo‘s eStore by tapping a transit card on a game console – genius, given that a big part of their target audience doesn‘t have a credit or debit card.
- odiroot 6y agoIsn't this the same as Octopus in HK or FlashPay in Singapore?
- eric_khun 6y agoYes not only bus or metro, but almost everything. Taiwan put a considerable amount of effort to have a 1 card to rule them all. And it makes life so much easier[1] [1] https://erickhun.com/posts/taiwan-youbike-bike-sharing/ https://erickhun.com/posts/taiwan-youbike-bike-sharing/
- ahelwer 6y agoMicrosoft uses something similar for their on-campus cafeterias. All Microsoft employees are issued a RFID card with a chip that functions as a door access card, visual ID (it has your photo/name/employee number on it), smartcard for 2FA (this is being phased out in favor of TPM-based device registration), and cafeteria payment system. You can elect to have some percentage of your paycheck automatically loaded on the card. I used it for a bit early on in my employment, but then switched to paying with credit card (like almost everyone else I know).
- 2bitencryption 6y agoI think the core difference is that "Eagle Cash" is not centrally managed - the balance is actually on the physical card itself. I imagine the MS cards is more of a "central account" that is accessed when you swipe. I guess each "Eagle Cash" terminal has a certificate, and whenever you credit/debit the card, the terminal adds/subtracts the amount on the card, signs the new balance with the certificate, and then this can be verified at any other terminal. In other words, you can't modify the balance on the card unless you have the secret certificate, which is only present on the authorized terminals. If you try to modify it yourself, you can't do it, because no other terminal would accept the card unless the balance was cryptographically signed with the cert. That's my guess for how this works, at least. I wonder if each terminal has a unique cert that can be revoked if it is compromised.
- cbanek 6y agoI'm reminded of the episode of MAS*H where they are exchanging one color of scrip for another [0], and the hijinx [1] that ensues. [0] https://mash.fandom.com/wiki/Change_Day_(TV_series_episode) https://mash.fandom.com/wiki/Change_Day_(TV_series_episode) [1] Triple word score for a word with three dotted letters in a row.
- fallingfrog 6y agoThis was a common practice in the 19th century, paying workers in company chit that was only good at the company store. The practice might come back if the economic conditions are right.