5 ms·

> References in Greek texts from the 4th century BC are IMO suggestive of early voyages to the coast of West Africa, the nearest navigable mangrove forests (unl

> References in Greek texts from the 4th century BC are IMO suggestive of early voyages to the coast of West Africa, the nearest navigable mangrove forests (unless shipworm managed to somehow get carried across the Sinai isthmus) Simon Winchester discusses how Cape Bojador [1] was impassible until 1443 (in his book Atlantic [2]) so it is unlikely that early voyages reached any further south along the coast of West Africa. During Roman times there were indeed canals to the Red Sea [3] and a robust international trade system as outlined in the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea [4]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador [2] http://www.simonwinchester.com/atlantic http://www.simonwinchester.com/atlantic [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_of_the_Pharaohs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canal_of_the_Pharaohs [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_the_Erythraean_Sea

samb1729 6y ago
What about Cape Bojador made it impassible for so long? I know essentially nothing about navigation or ships in general besides that they don't travel over land particularly well[0], so if you know of an easy to digest resource I'd really appreciate it. [0]: except near Constantinople, obviously
- hardlianotion 6y ago
  The Wikipedia article referenced in parent gives good detail on the problems Cape Bojador posed for early sailors.
- avian 6y ago
  The Wikipedia article says it’s a combination of dangerous shallows and unfavorable winds all year near the shore. The way to avoid those was to sail around it, beyond the sight of land. This was something ancient ships couldn’t do because they relied on seeing the land for navigation.
  - samb1729 6y ago
    Ah, you're right. I did actually click that link but something about the way that article is written made scanning for the specific thing I was after while tired very difficult. I'll re-evaluate this perception after I've slept, but it feels like key facts are buried in storytelling in a way I don't see often on Wikipedia. Could just be me, I'm not sure. Edit: I think what I'm describing is a textbook example of a buried lede.
    - Noumenon72 6y ago
      I agree with you, it's overwritten. Would be interesting for a Wikipedia editor to explain how this tourist-history style differs from the accepted Wikipedia style.
    - avian 6y ago
      I had similar thoughts when reading the article. It's written in a quite an unusual storytelling style without clearly summarizing the key points.
  - sradman 6y ago
    > The way to avoid those was to sail around it... The problem was that ships were swept out to sea and couldn't sail in any direction other than certain death (or the Americas). The Volta do Mar gave the Portuguese a safety net to experiment with navigating Cape Bojador without the certain death aspect. Careful data collection (speed/direction of the ship/wind/water-current) and vector math provided a set of sailing instructions that was akin to a set of dance steps. The Portuguese sailed around the Cape of Good Hope but they navigated Cape Bojador with an algorithm. What I find fascinating is that such a monumental moment in history is not well known.
- detritus 6y ago
  OP's first link qualifies as an easy to digest resource on the subject. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador)
- sradman 6y ago
  The book Atlantic is where I came across it. Sand shoals force ships into the currents of the North Atlantic Gyre which the Portuguese mastered before tackling the Cape Bojador problem; see Volta do Mar [1] which has a great diagram. The problem was solved with math. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volta_do_mar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volta_do_mar
  - samb1729 6y ago
    I appreciate your terse explanation! The "Historical significance" section on the Cape Bojador is impenetrable in my current tired state.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
throw0101a 6y ago
> a robust international trade system A list of various trade routes, dating from ancient times to the Middle Ages: * https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/86338/8-trade-routes-shaped-world-history https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/86338/8-trade-routes-sha... A cool map of Medieval trade routes: * https://www.visualcapitalist.com/medieval-trade-route-map/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/medieval-trade-route-map/ 'Globalism' / global trade isn't anything new.
throw0101a 6y ago
> Simon Winchester discusses how Cape Bojador [1] was impassible until 1443 (in his book Atlantic [2]) He also wrote Pacific. :)
jankotek 6y ago
Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa, Greeks knew about that. https://www.labrujulaverde.com/en/2018/11/the-egyptian-phoenician-expedition-that-circumnavigated-africa-more-than-2500-years-ago/ https://www.labrujulaverde.com/en/2018/11/the-egyptian-phoen...
- sradman 6y ago
  Interesting: > As it can be appreciated, that voyage followed the opposite direction to those that the Portuguese would do centuries later: instead of sail south the Atlantic Ocean and round the Cape of Good Hope to the east, they had to sail from Egypt in summer, cross the Red Sea (the Arabian Gulf which Herodotus says) taking advantage of the north wind and leaving behind the Horn of Africa. So it is possible/likely that the Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa in a clockwise direction while the Portuguese solved the harder problem of circumnavigating Africa counter-clockwise. Back to the original question: how did shipworms get to ancient Greece? Both narratives support the idea that shipworms were most likely carried from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea. The question is how early the Canal of the Pharaohs was operational. The shipworms may actual help set this date. I wonder if a Phoenician equivalent of the Roman/Byzantine Periplus of the Erythraean Sea existed in Carthage and was lost after the Third Punic War.
  - jankotek 6y ago
    Ships were often carried across land, for example over Isthmus of Corinth. Ship wood was also expensive, maybe they took and reused some parts...
    - sradman 6y ago
      Right, assuming shipworms could survive the extended period on land.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Your source is not a credible one. It is merely speculative armchair history along the lines of a Gavin Menzies or Graham Hancock.
wazoox 6y ago
Actually this theory comes from Raymond Mauny: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Mauny https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Mauny See the original 1955 paper (in French) : https://www.persee.fr/doc/rea_0035-2004_1955_num_57_1_3523 https://www.persee.fr/doc/rea_0035-2004_1955_num_57_1_3523
EmilioMartinez 6y ago
>Worse, the ferrous rocks make compass needles whirl erratically ok, now that's a bit over the top, but that cape being impassible helps make sense of world history a bit

samb1729 6y ago

What about Cape Bojador made it impassible for so long? I know essentially nothing about navigation or ships in general besides that they don't travel over land particularly well[0], so if you know of an easy to digest resource I'd really appreciate it. [0]: except near Constantinople, obviously

hardlianotion 6y ago
The Wikipedia article referenced in parent gives good detail on the problems Cape Bojador posed for early sailors.
avian 6y ago
The Wikipedia article says it’s a combination of dangerous shallows and unfavorable winds all year near the shore. The way to avoid those was to sail around it, beyond the sight of land. This was something ancient ships couldn’t do because they relied on seeing the land for navigation.
- samb1729 6y ago
  Ah, you're right. I did actually click that link but something about the way that article is written made scanning for the specific thing I was after while tired very difficult. I'll re-evaluate this perception after I've slept, but it feels like key facts are buried in storytelling in a way I don't see often on Wikipedia. Could just be me, I'm not sure. Edit: I think what I'm describing is a textbook example of a buried lede.
  - Noumenon72 6y ago
    I agree with you, it's overwritten. Would be interesting for a Wikipedia editor to explain how this tourist-history style differs from the accepted Wikipedia style.
  - avian 6y ago
    I had similar thoughts when reading the article. It's written in a quite an unusual storytelling style without clearly summarizing the key points.
- sradman 6y ago
  > The way to avoid those was to sail around it... The problem was that ships were swept out to sea and couldn't sail in any direction other than certain death (or the Americas). The Volta do Mar gave the Portuguese a safety net to experiment with navigating Cape Bojador without the certain death aspect. Careful data collection (speed/direction of the ship/wind/water-current) and vector math provided a set of sailing instructions that was akin to a set of dance steps. The Portuguese sailed around the Cape of Good Hope but they navigated Cape Bojador with an algorithm. What I find fascinating is that such a monumental moment in history is not well known.
detritus 6y ago
OP's first link qualifies as an easy to digest resource on the subject. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Bojador)
sradman 6y ago
The book Atlantic is where I came across it. Sand shoals force ships into the currents of the North Atlantic Gyre which the Portuguese mastered before tackling the Cape Bojador problem; see Volta do Mar [1] which has a great diagram. The problem was solved with math. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volta_do_mar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volta_do_mar
- samb1729 6y ago
  I appreciate your terse explanation! The "Historical significance" section on the Cape Bojador is impenetrable in my current tired state.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

throw0101a 6y ago

> a robust international trade system A list of various trade routes, dating from ancient times to the Middle Ages: * https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/86338/8-trade-routes-shaped-world-history https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/86338/8-trade-routes-sha... A cool map of Medieval trade routes: * https://www.visualcapitalist.com/medieval-trade-route-map/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/medieval-trade-route-map/ 'Globalism' / global trade isn't anything new.

throw0101a 6y ago

> Simon Winchester discusses how Cape Bojador [1] was impassible until 1443 (in his book Atlantic [2]) He also wrote Pacific. :)

jankotek 6y ago

Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa, Greeks knew about that. https://www.labrujulaverde.com/en/2018/11/the-egyptian-phoenician-expedition-that-circumnavigated-africa-more-than-2500-years-ago/ https://www.labrujulaverde.com/en/2018/11/the-egyptian-phoen...

sradman 6y ago
Interesting: > As it can be appreciated, that voyage followed the opposite direction to those that the Portuguese would do centuries later: instead of sail south the Atlantic Ocean and round the Cape of Good Hope to the east, they had to sail from Egypt in summer, cross the Red Sea (the Arabian Gulf which Herodotus says) taking advantage of the north wind and leaving behind the Horn of Africa. So it is possible/likely that the Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa in a clockwise direction while the Portuguese solved the harder problem of circumnavigating Africa counter-clockwise. Back to the original question: how did shipworms get to ancient Greece? Both narratives support the idea that shipworms were most likely carried from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea. The question is how early the Canal of the Pharaohs was operational. The shipworms may actual help set this date. I wonder if a Phoenician equivalent of the Roman/Byzantine Periplus of the Erythraean Sea existed in Carthage and was lost after the Third Punic War.
- jankotek 6y ago
  Ships were often carried across land, for example over Isthmus of Corinth. Ship wood was also expensive, maybe they took and reused some parts...
  - sradman 6y ago
    Right, assuming shipworms could survive the extended period on land.
Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Your source is not a credible one. It is merely speculative armchair history along the lines of a Gavin Menzies or Graham Hancock.

wazoox 6y ago

Actually this theory comes from Raymond Mauny: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Mauny https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Mauny See the original 1955 paper (in French) : https://www.persee.fr/doc/rea_0035-2004_1955_num_57_1_3523 https://www.persee.fr/doc/rea_0035-2004_1955_num_57_1_3523

EmilioMartinez 6y ago

>Worse, the ferrous rocks make compass needles whirl erratically ok, now that's a bit over the top, but that cape being impassible helps make sense of world history a bit