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You believe these companies "bias positively". Which may or may not be true. What do you think this anecdote means? What do you think about this situation? I

You believe these companies "bias positively". Which may or may not be true. What do you think this anecdote means? What do you think about this situation? I think that you want people to draw a conclusion from this story.

daenz 6y ago
>I think that you want people to draw a conclusion from this story. Yes, that conclusion is exactly what I already said, which I worded very precisely: "some companies bias positively towards people based on their race and/or gender". So we should not automatically assume, as the person I was replying to suggested, that someone will be biased against because of their race or gender for affirming work boundaries. You reading into that to try to sniff out hints of racism and prejudice says more about your motives and your intentions here than it does mine. >You believe these companies "bias positively". Which may or may not be true. I didn't say "these companies", I said "some companies." And "some companies" is true, because I have personal experiences at "some companies" that show backroom positive biases towards employees and interview candidates, without their knowledge, explicitly because of their identity (both race and sex). You seem to disagree that my experiences are valid, and if they are valid, that I must be sexist or racist for even sharing them.
- kelnos 6y ago
  > Yes, that conclusion is exactly what I already said, which I worded very precisely: "some companies bias positively towards people based on their race and/or gender". I would not consider the scenario you described to be positive bias. It's still negative, and it still hurts the employee in question, even if they still get to draw a paycheck for a time. It's just a... different... kind of bias than the kind I mentioned. > So we should not automatically assume, as the person I was replying to suggested, that someone will be biased against because of their race or gender for affirming work boundaries.* My original comment didn't suggest that we should automatically assume that, just that it was a possibility. And I'd still expect my possibility to be more likely and pervasive than the scenario you described.
- tthhrroowwaway 6y ago
  I don't mean to suggest that your experiences are not valid. Or to make you feel like you're on trial. I mean to make you feel that you may benefit from a tweaked perspective. What I disagree with is that there is such a thing as 'biasing positively'. People seek to build diverse teams. In my opinion, your colleague wasn't necessarily being done a favor if it happened they were performing poorly and didn't have a good feedback loop. Your CEO may have been profiting from this situation at the long-term expense of your colleague.
  - daenz 6y ago
    I actually agree with most of this. I also think we should actively seek to build diverse teams, primarily by more inclusive pipelines. I also agree that it was a long-term disservice to the employee who wasn't getting the necessary feedback/adjustments, because the CEO wanted to game the system unethically. I just don't think we should be biasing our judgments of a person's value or competency based on their sex or race though, and unfortunately, I have a few experiences that point to conscious decisions in that direction. I'm not saying you are making this argument, but if there is an argument that "we need conscious decisions to counterbalance the unconscious biases," then I really wholeheartedly disagree with that approach. Like you suggested, we're not doing people favors when we shield them from honest feedback about their output.

daenz 6y ago

>I think that you want people to draw a conclusion from this story. Yes, that conclusion is exactly what I already said, which I worded very precisely: "some companies bias positively towards people based on their race and/or gender". So we should not automatically assume, as the person I was replying to suggested, that someone will be biased against because of their race or gender for affirming work boundaries. You reading into that to try to sniff out hints of racism and prejudice says more about your motives and your intentions here than it does mine. >You believe these companies "bias positively". Which may or may not be true. I didn't say "these companies", I said "some companies." And "some companies" is true, because I have personal experiences at "some companies" that show backroom positive biases towards employees and interview candidates, without their knowledge, explicitly because of their identity (both race and sex). You seem to disagree that my experiences are valid, and if they are valid, that I must be sexist or racist for even sharing them.

kelnos 6y ago
> Yes, that conclusion is exactly what I already said, which I worded very precisely: "some companies bias positively towards people based on their race and/or gender". I would not consider the scenario you described to be positive bias. It's still negative, and it still hurts the employee in question, even if they still get to draw a paycheck for a time. It's just a... different... kind of bias than the kind I mentioned. > So we should not automatically assume, as the person I was replying to suggested, that someone will be biased against because of their race or gender for affirming work boundaries.* My original comment didn't suggest that we should automatically assume that, just that it was a possibility. And I'd still expect my possibility to be more likely and pervasive than the scenario you described.
tthhrroowwaway 6y ago
I don't mean to suggest that your experiences are not valid. Or to make you feel like you're on trial. I mean to make you feel that you may benefit from a tweaked perspective. What I disagree with is that there is such a thing as 'biasing positively'. People seek to build diverse teams. In my opinion, your colleague wasn't necessarily being done a favor if it happened they were performing poorly and didn't have a good feedback loop. Your CEO may have been profiting from this situation at the long-term expense of your colleague.
- daenz 6y ago
  I actually agree with most of this. I also think we should actively seek to build diverse teams, primarily by more inclusive pipelines. I also agree that it was a long-term disservice to the employee who wasn't getting the necessary feedback/adjustments, because the CEO wanted to game the system unethically. I just don't think we should be biasing our judgments of a person's value or competency based on their sex or race though, and unfortunately, I have a few experiences that point to conscious decisions in that direction. I'm not saying you are making this argument, but if there is an argument that "we need conscious decisions to counterbalance the unconscious biases," then I really wholeheartedly disagree with that approach. Like you suggested, we're not doing people favors when we shield them from honest feedback about their output.