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> My point was that the government has control of the internet, and thereby all activity on the internet. And yet, here we are, living in a world where such co

by stale2002 6y ago

> My point was that the government has control of the internet, and thereby all activity on the internet. And yet, here we are, living in a world where such controls are pretty difficult to enact and simply aren't happening. Even in places where there are government controls over the internet, such controls are apparently not even close to perfect, on many many people are successfully able to get around them. So, the evidence shows, that despite any argument that you are making about how governments might control the internet and stop anyone from ever doing anything at all that they don't like, that is simply not happening right now to such a perfect degree that you suggest should happen, even in currently authoritarian countries. > We're talking about Venezuela, which has had extreme economic damages caused by a government trying to maintain control over its population And yet, despite all of that, it doesn't really seem to be enacting extreme/perfect control over the internet, despite many motivations to do so, that have nothing to do with crypto. > The comment we're replying to said that Bitcoin is valuable in transactions with Venezuelan counter-parties because of Venezuela's government's damage to the domestic economy. Ok, and Venezuela isn't at all successfully preventing this damage. They aren't doing that. So the evidence shows that, for some reason, Venezuela is unable or unwilling to put extreme controls on crypto, do the the consequences or difficulty of doing so. Any hypothetical, or arguments that you can possibly think of, as for why Venezuela should put extreme controls on crypto or the internet, needs to deal with the fact that Venezuela simply isn't doing that right now, likely for a good reason. Because it is very difficult to do that.

xapata 6y ago
Nope, I'm not familiar with how widespread cryptocurrency usage is for international exchange with Venezuela. I do know that they keep tight control over traditional foreign currency exchange via public markets.
- stale2002 6y ago
  > I do know that they keep tight control I was talking about how much control they have over the internet. The fact of the matter is, that even the most authoritarian countries out there, are simply are unable to have a 100% perfect authoritarian control over their internet, as of today. Despite the many motivations that current authoritarian countries have for definitely wanting to control their internet, right now, the evidence is showing that they are failing to perfectly control everything over the internet.
  - xapata 6y ago
    I don't think the aim is to have 100% control, but just enough. I'll admit I didn't read closely, but I have read a few news articles about some government or another temporarily shutting down internet access during a protest. I'd expect Venezuela could do something similar if they felt like it. They seem perfectly happy letting their citizenry go without basic staples, I'm sure they'd be fine turning off internet for a while.
    - stale2002 6y ago
      > I'd expect Venezuela could do something similar if they felt like it. And yet, if you look at the real world, and how things exist already, you see that these types of efforts have failed. This is not a hypothetical situation. This is not about stuff that may or may not happen in the future. Instead, you can look at real world situations, that happen right now, in existing countries all around the world, and you will see that the efforts to control the internet, have mostly failed. Ex: Just look at china, which is the most famous example of internet control. . Lots of people have VPNs and can get around these restrictions in china. The evidence already proves you wrong. There are multiple countries who have attempted to enact strict controls, over the internet, already, and they have mostly failed.
      - xapata 6y ago
        On the contrary, I think China is a good example of how the government can have its cake and eat it, too. When you say, "lots of people," how many are we talking about? The majority? If so, you'd think the government would just give up trying to have control, it wouldn't be worth the effort. Remember, we're not talking about trying to have a technology that a few hobbyists can use. The goal is widespread usage, enough that it prevents governments from controlling currency.
        stale2002 6y ago
        > When you say, "lots of people," how many are we talking about? Enough that this whole original idea that you stated which was "Can't the government simply shut down the internet", is obviously not true. The real world examples of real world countries, show that places like china are not "shutting down the internet", and that such an idea is obviously stupid. There are tons of stories that you could make up in your head, about why China would want to shut down the internet right now. And yet, the fact of the matter is, that China is not "shutting down the internet". Thats the facts. Countries are simply not doing that. Despite many motivations to do so. > you'd think the government would just give up trying to have control, it wouldn't be worth the effort And yet we see that the governments of the world are not successfully cracking down on the internet enough to shut down crypto. Thats not happening. Despite the fact that crypto is often used for illegal purposes. And yet countries aren't enacting authoritarian control over all of the internet to shut it all down. We do not need to consider hypotheticals here. Just look at the real world, right now, and all the illegal activity that happens using crypto, and yet we are seeing that the world governments are not willing to enact measures to shut it all down. Apparently, it is not worth the effort to shut down that illegal activity, right now. That is already the state of the world.

xapata 6y ago

Nope, I'm not familiar with how widespread cryptocurrency usage is for international exchange with Venezuela. I do know that they keep tight control over traditional foreign currency exchange via public markets.

stale2002 6y ago
> I do know that they keep tight control I was talking about how much control they have over the internet. The fact of the matter is, that even the most authoritarian countries out there, are simply are unable to have a 100% perfect authoritarian control over their internet, as of today. Despite the many motivations that current authoritarian countries have for definitely wanting to control their internet, right now, the evidence is showing that they are failing to perfectly control everything over the internet.
- xapata 6y ago
  I don't think the aim is to have 100% control, but just enough. I'll admit I didn't read closely, but I have read a few news articles about some government or another temporarily shutting down internet access during a protest. I'd expect Venezuela could do something similar if they felt like it. They seem perfectly happy letting their citizenry go without basic staples, I'm sure they'd be fine turning off internet for a while.
  - stale2002 6y ago
    > I'd expect Venezuela could do something similar if they felt like it. And yet, if you look at the real world, and how things exist already, you see that these types of efforts have failed. This is not a hypothetical situation. This is not about stuff that may or may not happen in the future. Instead, you can look at real world situations, that happen right now, in existing countries all around the world, and you will see that the efforts to control the internet, have mostly failed. Ex: Just look at china, which is the most famous example of internet control. . Lots of people have VPNs and can get around these restrictions in china. The evidence already proves you wrong. There are multiple countries who have attempted to enact strict controls, over the internet, already, and they have mostly failed.
    - xapata 6y ago
      On the contrary, I think China is a good example of how the government can have its cake and eat it, too. When you say, "lots of people," how many are we talking about? The majority? If so, you'd think the government would just give up trying to have control, it wouldn't be worth the effort. Remember, we're not talking about trying to have a technology that a few hobbyists can use. The goal is widespread usage, enough that it prevents governments from controlling currency.
      - stale2002 6y ago
        > When you say, "lots of people," how many are we talking about? Enough that this whole original idea that you stated which was "Can't the government simply shut down the internet", is obviously not true. The real world examples of real world countries, show that places like china are not "shutting down the internet", and that such an idea is obviously stupid. There are tons of stories that you could make up in your head, about why China would want to shut down the internet right now. And yet, the fact of the matter is, that China is not "shutting down the internet". Thats the facts. Countries are simply not doing that. Despite many motivations to do so. > you'd think the government would just give up trying to have control, it wouldn't be worth the effort And yet we see that the governments of the world are not successfully cracking down on the internet enough to shut down crypto. Thats not happening. Despite the fact that crypto is often used for illegal purposes. And yet countries aren't enacting authoritarian control over all of the internet to shut it all down. We do not need to consider hypotheticals here. Just look at the real world, right now, and all the illegal activity that happens using crypto, and yet we are seeing that the world governments are not willing to enact measures to shut it all down. Apparently, it is not worth the effort to shut down that illegal activity, right now. That is already the state of the world.