7 ms·

> nearly impossible to stop What's nearly impossible to stop? Can't the government simply shut down the internet to stop Bitcoin? Or insert itself as the man

by xapata 6y ago

> nearly impossible to stop What's nearly impossible to stop? Can't the government simply shut down the internet to stop Bitcoin? Or insert itself as the man in the middle of all network traffic.

stale2002 6y ago
No, the government can't "just shut down the internet". If any government did that, then the country would suffer extreme economic damages, if such a policy was maintained for a long time. Your argument would be like if someone were to say "actually, the government can stop all theft, now and forever. All it has to do is launch 1 thousand nukes, start world war 3, and kill off 99% of the population". Like, sure. The government could end the world, by launch a nuke at every major city in the world. And it is true that by doing this it would end all theft .. because everyone is dead. But you are kinda missing the bigger picture if you are seriously suggesting this as a counter argument to anything.
- xapata 6y ago
  My point was that the government has control of the internet, and thereby all activity on the internet. > extreme economic damages We're talking about Venezuela, which has had extreme economic damages caused by a government trying to maintain control over its population. It seems that they don't care about damage, only power domestically, not internationally. The comment we're replying to said that Bitcoin is valuable in transactions with Venezuelan counter-parties because of Venezuela's government's damage to the domestic economy.
  - stale2002 6y ago
    > My point was that the government has control of the internet, and thereby all activity on the internet. And yet, here we are, living in a world where such controls are pretty difficult to enact and simply aren't happening. Even in places where there are government controls over the internet, such controls are apparently not even close to perfect, on many many people are successfully able to get around them. So, the evidence shows, that despite any argument that you are making about how governments might control the internet and stop anyone from ever doing anything at all that they don't like, that is simply not happening right now to such a perfect degree that you suggest should happen, even in currently authoritarian countries. > We're talking about Venezuela, which has had extreme economic damages caused by a government trying to maintain control over its population And yet, despite all of that, it doesn't really seem to be enacting extreme/perfect control over the internet, despite many motivations to do so, that have nothing to do with crypto. > The comment we're replying to said that Bitcoin is valuable in transactions with Venezuelan counter-parties because of Venezuela's government's damage to the domestic economy. Ok, and Venezuela isn't at all successfully preventing this damage. They aren't doing that. So the evidence shows that, for some reason, Venezuela is unable or unwilling to put extreme controls on crypto, do the the consequences or difficulty of doing so. Any hypothetical, or arguments that you can possibly think of, as for why Venezuela should put extreme controls on crypto or the internet, needs to deal with the fact that Venezuela simply isn't doing that right now, likely for a good reason. Because it is very difficult to do that.
    - xapata 6y ago
      Nope, I'm not familiar with how widespread cryptocurrency usage is for international exchange with Venezuela. I do know that they keep tight control over traditional foreign currency exchange via public markets.
      - stale2002 6y ago
        > I do know that they keep tight control I was talking about how much control they have over the internet. The fact of the matter is, that even the most authoritarian countries out there, are simply are unable to have a 100% perfect authoritarian control over their internet, as of today. Despite the many motivations that current authoritarian countries have for definitely wanting to control their internet, right now, the evidence is showing that they are failing to perfectly control everything over the internet.
        xapata 6y ago
        I don't think the aim is to have 100% control, but just enough. I'll admit I didn't read closely, but I have read a few news articles about some government or another temporarily shutting down internet access during a protest. I'd expect Venezuela could do something similar if they felt like it. They seem perfectly happy letting their citizenry go without basic staples, I'm sure they'd be fine turning off internet for a while.
        stale2002 6y ago
        > I'd expect Venezuela could do something similar if they felt like it. And yet, if you look at the real world, and how things exist already, you see that these types of efforts have failed. This is not a hypothetical situation. This is not about stuff that may or may not happen in the future. Instead, you can look at real world situations, that happen right now, in existing countries all around the world, and you will see that the efforts to control the internet, have mostly failed. Ex: Just look at china, which is the most famous example of internet control. . Lots of people have VPNs and can get around these restrictions in china. The evidence already proves you wrong. There are multiple countries who have attempted to enact strict controls, over the internet, already, and they have mostly failed.
  - feanaro 6y ago
    > My point was that the government has control of the internet, and thereby all activity on the internet. Yes, if you're a big enough bully, you have control over many things. However, sometimes the control would imply too much destruction so even the bully chooses not to proceed. This is essentially what is happening right now.
    - xapata 6y ago
      https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/18/americas/venezuela-death-of-socialism-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/18/americas/venezuela-death-of-s... > In more recent years, even the state's hold on the country's financial system has been badly shaken, with the US dollar growing commonplace in day-to-day transactions. In March 2019, Venezuela's entire electric grid collapsed, leaving some regions without power for up to a week. Without electricity, electronic transactions including credit and debit card payments were impossible, and paying cash was futile with even the highest-denomination bolivar notes worth only pennies. So Venezuelans started using the option left: illegal foreign banknotes. How would they use Bitcoin when electricity is out? Generators only last so long when fuel is rationed. > the government for the first time allowed a private company to issue bonds in dollars, and by doing so, raise capital outside of government control. They key word there is "allowed" because that emphasizes the ability to disallow at some point in the future. People have this sci-fi imagining of megacorps and the collapse of government power. Instead, we have Jack Ma probably afraid for his life, because he insulted the wrong person.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Have you met North Korea?
  - chris_wot 6y ago
    That bastion of great economic management and economic growth...
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Indeed however Bitcoin is positioned as a way of fighting back against these administrations. However it helps literally nobody in North Korea because they just shut down their internet.
      - mythrwy 6y ago
        I think Bitcoin does help people in North Korea though. Just not the average citizen.
        arcticbull 6y ago
        No citizen of North Korea whose not a party member gets to use Bitcoin. The only people who do are using it to finance the hermit kingdom's nuclear weapons program. That's not a good thing.

by xapata 6y ago

> nearly impossible to stop What's nearly impossible to stop? Can't the government simply shut down the internet to stop Bitcoin? Or insert itself as the man in the middle of all network traffic.

stale2002 6y ago

No, the government can't "just shut down the internet". If any government did that, then the country would suffer extreme economic damages, if such a policy was maintained for a long time. Your argument would be like if someone were to say "actually, the government can stop all theft, now and forever. All it has to do is launch 1 thousand nukes, start world war 3, and kill off 99% of the population". Like, sure. The government could end the world, by launch a nuke at every major city in the world. And it is true that by doing this it would end all theft .. because everyone is dead. But you are kinda missing the bigger picture if you are seriously suggesting this as a counter argument to anything.

xapata 6y ago
My point was that the government has control of the internet, and thereby all activity on the internet. > extreme economic damages We're talking about Venezuela, which has had extreme economic damages caused by a government trying to maintain control over its population. It seems that they don't care about damage, only power domestically, not internationally. The comment we're replying to said that Bitcoin is valuable in transactions with Venezuelan counter-parties because of Venezuela's government's damage to the domestic economy.
- stale2002 6y ago
  > My point was that the government has control of the internet, and thereby all activity on the internet. And yet, here we are, living in a world where such controls are pretty difficult to enact and simply aren't happening. Even in places where there are government controls over the internet, such controls are apparently not even close to perfect, on many many people are successfully able to get around them. So, the evidence shows, that despite any argument that you are making about how governments might control the internet and stop anyone from ever doing anything at all that they don't like, that is simply not happening right now to such a perfect degree that you suggest should happen, even in currently authoritarian countries. > We're talking about Venezuela, which has had extreme economic damages caused by a government trying to maintain control over its population And yet, despite all of that, it doesn't really seem to be enacting extreme/perfect control over the internet, despite many motivations to do so, that have nothing to do with crypto. > The comment we're replying to said that Bitcoin is valuable in transactions with Venezuelan counter-parties because of Venezuela's government's damage to the domestic economy. Ok, and Venezuela isn't at all successfully preventing this damage. They aren't doing that. So the evidence shows that, for some reason, Venezuela is unable or unwilling to put extreme controls on crypto, do the the consequences or difficulty of doing so. Any hypothetical, or arguments that you can possibly think of, as for why Venezuela should put extreme controls on crypto or the internet, needs to deal with the fact that Venezuela simply isn't doing that right now, likely for a good reason. Because it is very difficult to do that.
  - xapata 6y ago
    Nope, I'm not familiar with how widespread cryptocurrency usage is for international exchange with Venezuela. I do know that they keep tight control over traditional foreign currency exchange via public markets.
    - stale2002 6y ago
      > I do know that they keep tight control I was talking about how much control they have over the internet. The fact of the matter is, that even the most authoritarian countries out there, are simply are unable to have a 100% perfect authoritarian control over their internet, as of today. Despite the many motivations that current authoritarian countries have for definitely wanting to control their internet, right now, the evidence is showing that they are failing to perfectly control everything over the internet.
      - xapata 6y ago
        I don't think the aim is to have 100% control, but just enough. I'll admit I didn't read closely, but I have read a few news articles about some government or another temporarily shutting down internet access during a protest. I'd expect Venezuela could do something similar if they felt like it. They seem perfectly happy letting their citizenry go without basic staples, I'm sure they'd be fine turning off internet for a while.
        stale2002 6y ago
        > I'd expect Venezuela could do something similar if they felt like it. And yet, if you look at the real world, and how things exist already, you see that these types of efforts have failed. This is not a hypothetical situation. This is not about stuff that may or may not happen in the future. Instead, you can look at real world situations, that happen right now, in existing countries all around the world, and you will see that the efforts to control the internet, have mostly failed. Ex: Just look at china, which is the most famous example of internet control. . Lots of people have VPNs and can get around these restrictions in china. The evidence already proves you wrong. There are multiple countries who have attempted to enact strict controls, over the internet, already, and they have mostly failed.
- feanaro 6y ago
  > My point was that the government has control of the internet, and thereby all activity on the internet. Yes, if you're a big enough bully, you have control over many things. However, sometimes the control would imply too much destruction so even the bully chooses not to proceed. This is essentially what is happening right now.
  - xapata 6y ago
    https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/18/americas/venezuela-death-of-socialism-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/18/americas/venezuela-death-of-s... > In more recent years, even the state's hold on the country's financial system has been badly shaken, with the US dollar growing commonplace in day-to-day transactions. In March 2019, Venezuela's entire electric grid collapsed, leaving some regions without power for up to a week. Without electricity, electronic transactions including credit and debit card payments were impossible, and paying cash was futile with even the highest-denomination bolivar notes worth only pennies. So Venezuelans started using the option left: illegal foreign banknotes. How would they use Bitcoin when electricity is out? Generators only last so long when fuel is rationed. > the government for the first time allowed a private company to issue bonds in dollars, and by doing so, raise capital outside of government control. They key word there is "allowed" because that emphasizes the ability to disallow at some point in the future. People have this sci-fi imagining of megacorps and the collapse of government power. Instead, we have Jack Ma probably afraid for his life, because he insulted the wrong person.
arcticbull 6y ago
Have you met North Korea?
- chris_wot 6y ago
  That bastion of great economic management and economic growth...
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Indeed however Bitcoin is positioned as a way of fighting back against these administrations. However it helps literally nobody in North Korea because they just shut down their internet.
    - mythrwy 6y ago
      I think Bitcoin does help people in North Korea though. Just not the average citizen.
      - arcticbull 6y ago
        No citizen of North Korea whose not a party member gets to use Bitcoin. The only people who do are using it to finance the hermit kingdom's nuclear weapons program. That's not a good thing.