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In many cases, an expectation of working long hours is self-inflicted. A lot of managers would be surprised if their employees told them how many hours they hav

In many cases, an expectation of working long hours is self-inflicted. A lot of managers would be surprised if their employees told them how many hours they have been working while at home during the pandemic, because they didn't expect them to work that long. The easiest way to clear this up is to just talk to your manager and get on the same page about what is expected.

vorpalhex 6y ago
I've had to force employees to take time off. If we were still in an office environment, I would have made them leave their work laptop in the office just so they don't try to sign on. Some of the reasoning I've heard from these employees is that they believe they're the only one who can solve an issue. They're the ones who jump on it when it comes up during the regular day so if it re-appears they feel the need to jump on the grenade - explaining to them that other people can (and will) fix the problem helps, though it usually takes a few go arounds to get the point. There are times I'm on call, and I'll be pretty pro-active. Even if I don't get paged but major events are going on, I'll be keeping an eye on them. On the other hand when I'm off call? Unless someone picks up a phone and calls me, it's not even on my mind.
- kelnos 6y ago
  I've never been a manager, so I have no idea if this is a reasonable thing to do, but is it possible to tell employees that not taking care of their own health will reflect poorly on their performance review? I wonder if that would do anything.
  - vorpalhex 6y ago
    If you engage in threat making, that tends to make behavior become hidden as opposed to actually resolved. The goal is to build understanding because many of these folks are going to also be managers one day. Everyone is (usually) an adult, just talk it out and build that understanding.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      That makes sense, and my comment feels silly to me now in hindsight.
  - mateo411 6y ago
    That's probably not a good approach. I would just tell them that they have been working hard and they deserve a break/vacation. If they are worried that they are going to miss out on something, I just try explain that there will be plenty of work for them to do when they get back. I wouldn't mention that not taking care of their health would reflect poorly on their performance review. In fact I wouldn't want them to think about the performance review. The goal is for them to rest, recharge, and not get burnt out,
    - disabled 6y ago
      > I wouldn't mention that not taking care of their health would reflect poorly on their performance review. In fact I wouldn't want them to think about the performance review. The goal is for them to rest, recharge, and not get burnt out, I know you are trying to be considerate, but please do not ever assume people “are not taking care of themselves”, even if true. In the US, there is always a deeper story to it. Generally speaking 50% of the American population has a pre-existing condition. 30-50% of Americans avoid some medical care yearly due to the cost of care. The third leading cause of death is believed to be preventable medical errors (caused by the for-profit nature of our system: our doctors and nurses have excellent training), and the vast majority of these victims likely had pre-existing conditions. We just don’t attribute “preventable medical error” as a cause of death on US death certificates like we should. See: https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139 https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139 Also, the system is not designed to ensure the health of the populace, even if you are “rich” and “have good insurance” and “can afford to pay for healthcare with insurance coverage”. Pretty much every other industrialized and developed country is outpacing us in longevity. The system is not meant to prevent disease and it is very ineffective at it. It profits on the already sick. It really is a grotesque system. For more info on this (and the previous 2 paragraphs consult the publications on http://healthdata.org http://healthdata.org According to the book, “Dying for a Paycheck”, the fifth leading cause of death in the US is overwork: https://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-workplace-cause-death-20180328-story.html https://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-workplace-cause-de... When your health insurance is tied to your work, you are screwed if you have a pre-existing condition. This is why I will never work in the US, as a dual US|EU citizen with 2 rare immune mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin dependent). The neurological diseases are in remission, but I have to take a certain blood product, administered in a certain way, in large quantities, for life. It is known as subcutaneous immunoglobulin. It is far easier to access this is western/Northern European countries than the US, too.
- ghaff 6y ago
  In a former life, I would take 3-4 week vacations at a time when being away really meant being away and people would be flabbergasted that I could do this. But things were just fine. I admit I haven't really done this for a while--though I came close last year. But TBH, I'll keep vaguely in touch these days when I conveniently can and deal with anything that's urgent or really can't wait. (Like I did an interview from a B&B room that really needed to be done--an then wasn't used of course.) IMO, a lot of people put way too much pressure on themselves to be available 24/7/365 who don't need to. And if that really is the expectation maybe they should look someplace else unless it's their company or something something really special to them.
- mgkimsal 6y ago
  > they believe they're the only one who can solve an issue. Have you ever been in situations where you really are the only person who can solve the issue? Or, at least the only one who can solve it a) in a reasonable time frame and b) without creating multiple other problems? I've been in those situations before - not all the time, but it's happened. First time I sort of liked it - seemed like a bit of 'prestige'. But then ... I took a 3 day vacation. Flew hours away. Checked in to hotel. Light on the phone in the room was beeping with a message to call the office, because there was a bug no one could figure out. Even though I was at a 'big company', I was (literally) the only person on the project, and couldn't have 6 hours away without the world crashing down. Really poor management on everyone's part. I've been in a couple other situations since then where I'm the only person who can do X, and I recognize it, and lobby for someone else to be able to step in. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I've also had a couple of situations with competent team mates who all started before me, and had a wide diverse set of skills, supported each other, and I was not expected to be some sort of 'superhero'. I appreciated those environments more as an older person who's previously experienced the 'superhero' environments. These "many other people can do what you do" teams I've been a part of have been nice, but also comparatively rare.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    Did 100% pair programming for awhile. Whatever else can be said. I went on a week cruise with zero stress about work. Knowledge was so well spread around that no one was a point of failure. Several of us were the best for specific issues, but our pair would then get better at it.
    - mgkimsal 6y ago
      I've done short stints of pairing with folks, and yes, generally it works out great in those respects. Yes, those setups are often best - for people and for the business - "no one point of failure". It also seems harder for businesses to commit to paying for that redundancy, at least up front.
blandflakes 6y ago
I think there's a set of mental gymnastics that a lot of managers do in these scenarios, though. Sure, they want me to work normal hours, but every time we talk about roadmaps, it's all doom and gloom and there's isn't enough timing or resourcing to do anything, and we've already cut this project down as low as it can go. Implicit is the expectation that it's going to get done with the people we have by the deadline we set (arbitrarily).
sdoering 6y ago
I have to agree and disagree at the same time. My higher ups were shocked when I presented them with >540 hours of overtime accumulated from mid March to September. Not that I didn't more than once tell it in different video meetings with my team lead as well as managing directors. But they only reacted shocked when there was a paper trail. Before that telling them that I would run up to that amount of overtime did nothing.

vorpalhex 6y ago

I've had to force employees to take time off. If we were still in an office environment, I would have made them leave their work laptop in the office just so they don't try to sign on. Some of the reasoning I've heard from these employees is that they believe they're the only one who can solve an issue. They're the ones who jump on it when it comes up during the regular day so if it re-appears they feel the need to jump on the grenade - explaining to them that other people can (and will) fix the problem helps, though it usually takes a few go arounds to get the point. There are times I'm on call, and I'll be pretty pro-active. Even if I don't get paged but major events are going on, I'll be keeping an eye on them. On the other hand when I'm off call? Unless someone picks up a phone and calls me, it's not even on my mind.

kelnos 6y ago
I've never been a manager, so I have no idea if this is a reasonable thing to do, but is it possible to tell employees that not taking care of their own health will reflect poorly on their performance review? I wonder if that would do anything.
- vorpalhex 6y ago
  If you engage in threat making, that tends to make behavior become hidden as opposed to actually resolved. The goal is to build understanding because many of these folks are going to also be managers one day. Everyone is (usually) an adult, just talk it out and build that understanding.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    That makes sense, and my comment feels silly to me now in hindsight.
- mateo411 6y ago
  That's probably not a good approach. I would just tell them that they have been working hard and they deserve a break/vacation. If they are worried that they are going to miss out on something, I just try explain that there will be plenty of work for them to do when they get back. I wouldn't mention that not taking care of their health would reflect poorly on their performance review. In fact I wouldn't want them to think about the performance review. The goal is for them to rest, recharge, and not get burnt out,
  - disabled 6y ago
    > I wouldn't mention that not taking care of their health would reflect poorly on their performance review. In fact I wouldn't want them to think about the performance review. The goal is for them to rest, recharge, and not get burnt out, I know you are trying to be considerate, but please do not ever assume people “are not taking care of themselves”, even if true. In the US, there is always a deeper story to it. Generally speaking 50% of the American population has a pre-existing condition. 30-50% of Americans avoid some medical care yearly due to the cost of care. The third leading cause of death is believed to be preventable medical errors (caused by the for-profit nature of our system: our doctors and nurses have excellent training), and the vast majority of these victims likely had pre-existing conditions. We just don’t attribute “preventable medical error” as a cause of death on US death certificates like we should. See: https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139 https://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2139 Also, the system is not designed to ensure the health of the populace, even if you are “rich” and “have good insurance” and “can afford to pay for healthcare with insurance coverage”. Pretty much every other industrialized and developed country is outpacing us in longevity. The system is not meant to prevent disease and it is very ineffective at it. It profits on the already sick. It really is a grotesque system. For more info on this (and the previous 2 paragraphs consult the publications on http://healthdata.org http://healthdata.org According to the book, “Dying for a Paycheck”, the fifth leading cause of death in the US is overwork: https://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-workplace-cause-death-20180328-story.html https://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-workplace-cause-de... When your health insurance is tied to your work, you are screwed if you have a pre-existing condition. This is why I will never work in the US, as a dual US|EU citizen with 2 rare immune mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin dependent). The neurological diseases are in remission, but I have to take a certain blood product, administered in a certain way, in large quantities, for life. It is known as subcutaneous immunoglobulin. It is far easier to access this is western/Northern European countries than the US, too.
ghaff 6y ago
In a former life, I would take 3-4 week vacations at a time when being away really meant being away and people would be flabbergasted that I could do this. But things were just fine. I admit I haven't really done this for a while--though I came close last year. But TBH, I'll keep vaguely in touch these days when I conveniently can and deal with anything that's urgent or really can't wait. (Like I did an interview from a B&B room that really needed to be done--an then wasn't used of course.) IMO, a lot of people put way too much pressure on themselves to be available 24/7/365 who don't need to. And if that really is the expectation maybe they should look someplace else unless it's their company or something something really special to them.
mgkimsal 6y ago
> they believe they're the only one who can solve an issue. Have you ever been in situations where you really are the only person who can solve the issue? Or, at least the only one who can solve it a) in a reasonable time frame and b) without creating multiple other problems? I've been in those situations before - not all the time, but it's happened. First time I sort of liked it - seemed like a bit of 'prestige'. But then ... I took a 3 day vacation. Flew hours away. Checked in to hotel. Light on the phone in the room was beeping with a message to call the office, because there was a bug no one could figure out. Even though I was at a 'big company', I was (literally) the only person on the project, and couldn't have 6 hours away without the world crashing down. Really poor management on everyone's part. I've been in a couple other situations since then where I'm the only person who can do X, and I recognize it, and lobby for someone else to be able to step in. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I've also had a couple of situations with competent team mates who all started before me, and had a wide diverse set of skills, supported each other, and I was not expected to be some sort of 'superhero'. I appreciated those environments more as an older person who's previously experienced the 'superhero' environments. These "many other people can do what you do" teams I've been a part of have been nice, but also comparatively rare.
- treeman79 6y ago
  Did 100% pair programming for awhile. Whatever else can be said. I went on a week cruise with zero stress about work. Knowledge was so well spread around that no one was a point of failure. Several of us were the best for specific issues, but our pair would then get better at it.
  - mgkimsal 6y ago
    I've done short stints of pairing with folks, and yes, generally it works out great in those respects. Yes, those setups are often best - for people and for the business - "no one point of failure". It also seems harder for businesses to commit to paying for that redundancy, at least up front.

blandflakes 6y ago

I think there's a set of mental gymnastics that a lot of managers do in these scenarios, though. Sure, they want me to work normal hours, but every time we talk about roadmaps, it's all doom and gloom and there's isn't enough timing or resourcing to do anything, and we've already cut this project down as low as it can go. Implicit is the expectation that it's going to get done with the people we have by the deadline we set (arbitrarily).

sdoering 6y ago

I have to agree and disagree at the same time. My higher ups were shocked when I presented them with >540 hours of overtime accumulated from mid March to September. Not that I didn't more than once tell it in different video meetings with my team lead as well as managing directors. But they only reacted shocked when there was a paper trail. Before that telling them that I would run up to that amount of overtime did nothing.