5 ms·

While this is all well and good it feels like a slick "thought leadership" campaign that provides little in the way of actual solutions to the issues USG orgs f

by ajcp 6y ago

While this is all well and good it feels like a slick "thought leadership" campaign that provides little in the way of actual solutions to the issues USG orgs face when building/providing digital services. The challenge is not the "approach", but rather a system that constrains the ability to even begin that approach. I find #7 especially hollow: > We need talented people working in government who have experience creating modern digital services. Sure, no one would argue against that, but the solution to this can't come from the team implementing or providing the digital service. Rather the whole of USG's incredibly obtuse, opaque, and inflexible centralized hiring system needs to be addressed. This is no better than telling a USA Special Forces team commander that in order for his operators to be more effective he needs the Army to recruit better soldiers.

brdd 6y ago
I disagree — as a direct result of play #7 in this playbook, multiple large-scale initiatives were launched; most notably 18F, which is like a "startup" within the federal government: https://18f.gsa.gov/ https://18f.gsa.gov/ Another one that comes to mind is Coding It Forward, which has the express mission of creating government tech internships that rival FB/Google internships in terms of pay, experience, and mentorship: https://www.codingitforward.com/ https://www.codingitforward.com/
- heyitsguay 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing! This is all good to know, I'll be reaching out to see if there's any possibility of these groups helping to address some of the issues within our institute at the NIH. Right now it's unclear to what extent that can assist an intramural research program.
  - ajcp 6y ago
    18F is definitely a good start. I would also try Code for America[1], although they might only work at more of a local level. 1. https://www.codeforamerica.org/ https://www.codeforamerica.org/
  - wslack 6y ago
    There are digital groups of various sorts already operating at NIH. If the folks working on it are federal employees, there are groups that can help - but there has to be buy-in from decision makers. Bureaucracies have infinite ways to stop something if you don't get cover from certain people.
- ajcp 6y ago
  18F pre-dates the U.S. Digital Service by 6 months. Coding It Forward is a civil society initiative, not a government one, and is analogous to thinking that a weak diplomatic corps can be fixed by sponsoring more high school Model U.N. chapters. There is no lack of viable and willing candidates _outside_ of the system, the issue is getting them _inside_ and letting them inform it.
heyitsguay 6y ago
Yeah this meshes with my experiences working at the NIH. Lots of interest in big data, AI, etc. etc., and even financial incentives for new hires in those areas, but absolutely no coordinated approach to recruitment, retention, or project management. A few labs or support groups end up with great teams, but mostly tech knowledge is redundantly siloed in small mediocre groups across dozens of teams institutes-wide. And that's not even touching on IT issues...
kelnos 6y ago
A big problem with hiring is just USG pay scales. Even the top pay grades come in at less than what an average (or even less than average) developer can make in industry. Much less if you also consider equity comp. Sure, there are some people who will see working for USDS or 18F as a call to serve their country, and will accept a pay cut in order to do that, but I imagine that's a pretty small slice of the pie. Beyond that, it's the bureaucracy. I would honestly consider said pay cut in order to help make dealing with government computing systems better, but what I will not deal with is layers upon layers upon layers of bureaucracy. I've watched the 50-person startup I started at 9 years ago evolve into a 3500-person public company, and even here I find the bureaucracy and hierarchy stifling at times. At a government job I imagine it'll be orders of magnitude worse. I wouldn't even last half a year in that environment. Yes, Play #4 in their list in theory suggests that they'll try to cut through all that, but I don't believe for a second that will go well.
- randmeerkat 6y ago
  What would be nice is if these government jobs had training. The military can take someone from the street and make them a specialist in something. If USDS could take someone and make them into what they needed, the lower salary might be better justified.
  - ajcp 6y ago
    I could not agree more. If the USG wants to provide competent digital services to it's customer/shareholder then it might make more sense to get rid of the Digital Service in the WH and rather expand and go all in on 18F, where it provides a whole career progression from basic training on up through SES. I feel the absence of job training upon hiring is also why there is no concept of "company men" after the Boomer Generation; companies stopped investing in the employees they wanted and started treating them like pre-packaged commodity.
    - randmeerkat 6y ago
      I didn’t realize 18F has a training program. That’s awesome. I agree with your frustrations about training in general too. I wish companies provided that _and_ provided real career progression goals. Instead it’s learn the tech for your job after work and some vague one page sheet from HR about what the next level is, which really comes down to a manager’s opinion more than anything really measurable.
dan-0 6y ago
> I find #7 especially hollow I think there's some confusion here on what and how the USDS works. They embed into government organizations to improve services and systems, bringing expertise that doesn't normally exist in government, while not working directly for the organization they're embedded in. USDS doesn't follow normal hiring practices either. They recruit directly for limited employment terms, max of 4 years. This helps offset the entrenched beaurocratic mindset that exists in a lot of USG organisations, and allows them to recruit current experts in a particular field. From the Special Operations analogy this would be equivalent of the Military giving them direct hiring/recruitment ability from both the Armed Services and direct from civilian #7 "Bring in experienced teams" isn't hollow, it's their core mission.
- ajcp 6y ago
  I think the confusion is not in what the USDS does, but rather who their Play Book is intended for. Is it prescriptive or descriptive? If it's the former (as I took it) then we're not talking about the USDS itself, but the USG. If it's the latter then I defer to you, but still don't think it solves the structural problems that makes the USDS relevant in the first place. Going back to our US Special Forces team, the US Army actually did (attempt)to solve for this by simplifying the pipeline with the 18X "X-Ray" Program.
0kl 6y ago
https://smeqa.usds.gov/ https://smeqa.usds.gov/ We do work on hiring as well
- ajcp 6y ago
  Very cool, thank you for the information!
wslack 6y ago
This is hard for practical reasons. The civil service needs to be a place where everyone can get a job without knowing someone inside, so a lot of best practices in the private sector (referral-based hiring) don't easily translate. It's akin to the Postal Service visiting everyone's mailbox each day - not efficient, but important. THAT SAID, there are massive improvements that can happen in hiring - if agencies have incentives to pursue them!
- ajcp 6y ago
  I agree, this is a really tough nut to crack without completely overhauling the hiring system and making some hard decisions. USAJobs was a really good-faith effort, but it's not it.

by ajcp 6y ago

brdd 6y ago

I disagree — as a direct result of play #7 in this playbook, multiple large-scale initiatives were launched; most notably 18F, which is like a "startup" within the federal government: https://18f.gsa.gov/ https://18f.gsa.gov/ Another one that comes to mind is Coding It Forward, which has the express mission of creating government tech internships that rival FB/Google internships in terms of pay, experience, and mentorship: https://www.codingitforward.com/ https://www.codingitforward.com/

heyitsguay 6y ago
Thanks for sharing! This is all good to know, I'll be reaching out to see if there's any possibility of these groups helping to address some of the issues within our institute at the NIH. Right now it's unclear to what extent that can assist an intramural research program.
- ajcp 6y ago
  18F is definitely a good start. I would also try Code for America[1], although they might only work at more of a local level. 1. https://www.codeforamerica.org/ https://www.codeforamerica.org/
- wslack 6y ago
  There are digital groups of various sorts already operating at NIH. If the folks working on it are federal employees, there are groups that can help - but there has to be buy-in from decision makers. Bureaucracies have infinite ways to stop something if you don't get cover from certain people.
ajcp 6y ago
18F pre-dates the U.S. Digital Service by 6 months. Coding It Forward is a civil society initiative, not a government one, and is analogous to thinking that a weak diplomatic corps can be fixed by sponsoring more high school Model U.N. chapters. There is no lack of viable and willing candidates _outside_ of the system, the issue is getting them _inside_ and letting them inform it.

heyitsguay 6y ago

Yeah this meshes with my experiences working at the NIH. Lots of interest in big data, AI, etc. etc., and even financial incentives for new hires in those areas, but absolutely no coordinated approach to recruitment, retention, or project management. A few labs or support groups end up with great teams, but mostly tech knowledge is redundantly siloed in small mediocre groups across dozens of teams institutes-wide. And that's not even touching on IT issues...

kelnos 6y ago

A big problem with hiring is just USG pay scales. Even the top pay grades come in at less than what an average (or even less than average) developer can make in industry. Much less if you also consider equity comp. Sure, there are some people who will see working for USDS or 18F as a call to serve their country, and will accept a pay cut in order to do that, but I imagine that's a pretty small slice of the pie. Beyond that, it's the bureaucracy. I would honestly consider said pay cut in order to help make dealing with government computing systems better, but what I will not deal with is layers upon layers upon layers of bureaucracy. I've watched the 50-person startup I started at 9 years ago evolve into a 3500-person public company, and even here I find the bureaucracy and hierarchy stifling at times. At a government job I imagine it'll be orders of magnitude worse. I wouldn't even last half a year in that environment. Yes, Play #4 in their list in theory suggests that they'll try to cut through all that, but I don't believe for a second that will go well.

randmeerkat 6y ago
What would be nice is if these government jobs had training. The military can take someone from the street and make them a specialist in something. If USDS could take someone and make them into what they needed, the lower salary might be better justified.
- ajcp 6y ago
  I could not agree more. If the USG wants to provide competent digital services to it's customer/shareholder then it might make more sense to get rid of the Digital Service in the WH and rather expand and go all in on 18F, where it provides a whole career progression from basic training on up through SES. I feel the absence of job training upon hiring is also why there is no concept of "company men" after the Boomer Generation; companies stopped investing in the employees they wanted and started treating them like pre-packaged commodity.
  - randmeerkat 6y ago
    I didn’t realize 18F has a training program. That’s awesome. I agree with your frustrations about training in general too. I wish companies provided that _and_ provided real career progression goals. Instead it’s learn the tech for your job after work and some vague one page sheet from HR about what the next level is, which really comes down to a manager’s opinion more than anything really measurable.

dan-0 6y ago

> I find #7 especially hollow I think there's some confusion here on what and how the USDS works. They embed into government organizations to improve services and systems, bringing expertise that doesn't normally exist in government, while not working directly for the organization they're embedded in. USDS doesn't follow normal hiring practices either. They recruit directly for limited employment terms, max of 4 years. This helps offset the entrenched beaurocratic mindset that exists in a lot of USG organisations, and allows them to recruit current experts in a particular field. From the Special Operations analogy this would be equivalent of the Military giving them direct hiring/recruitment ability from both the Armed Services and direct from civilian #7 "Bring in experienced teams" isn't hollow, it's their core mission.

ajcp 6y ago
I think the confusion is not in what the USDS does, but rather who their Play Book is intended for. Is it prescriptive or descriptive? If it's the former (as I took it) then we're not talking about the USDS itself, but the USG. If it's the latter then I defer to you, but still don't think it solves the structural problems that makes the USDS relevant in the first place. Going back to our US Special Forces team, the US Army actually did (attempt)to solve for this by simplifying the pipeline with the 18X "X-Ray" Program.

0kl 6y ago

https://smeqa.usds.gov/ https://smeqa.usds.gov/ We do work on hiring as well

ajcp 6y ago
Very cool, thank you for the information!

wslack 6y ago

This is hard for practical reasons. The civil service needs to be a place where everyone can get a job without knowing someone inside, so a lot of best practices in the private sector (referral-based hiring) don't easily translate. It's akin to the Postal Service visiting everyone's mailbox each day - not efficient, but important. THAT SAID, there are massive improvements that can happen in hiring - if agencies have incentives to pursue them!

ajcp 6y ago
I agree, this is a really tough nut to crack without completely overhauling the hiring system and making some hard decisions. USAJobs was a really good-faith effort, but it's not it.