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The only major complaint I have with the downvote system is the comment-graying. The design goal is to dissemphasize downvoted comments, but in practice it bias

The only major complaint I have with the downvote system is the comment-graying. The design goal is to dissemphasize downvoted comments, but in practice it biases a reader toward downvote bandwagoning, anecdotally. (if comment scores were made public again I could quantitatively verify this, ahem) IMO comment graying should only start after a comment hits -2, instead of graying after a single downvote.

jolmg 6y ago
> instead of graying after a single downvote. It currently grays after 2 downvotes. You start at 1, one downvote puts you at 0, then another puts you at -1, and that's when you're grayed.
- minimaxir 6y ago
  I just checked one of my comments at 0 and that is not correct (there are different levels of graying depending on score, but the graying indeed starts at 0).
  - jolmg 6y ago
    Just checked one of my comments and you're right. I wonder if that changed or if I've always been mistaken about that.
zzo38computer 6y ago
I also dislike the comment-graying (my opinion is that it should never apply), but it is easy enough to fix by apply user CSS.
- jolmg 6y ago
  > but it is easy enough to fix by apply user CSS. That doesn't fix the bandwagoning issue mentioned. Though, personally I don't think it matters in terms of points/karma, though it is annoying to have that bias other readers' opinion on one's comment. One starts off reading with the preconception that it's a bad comment, even if the downvotes are from a disagreement. It's also annoying to be silenced from a disagreement. Graying seems equivalent so responding to someone with a "shut up" which I think anyone would agree is rude.
  - onecommentman 6y ago
    That surprises me. I think of graying out more as “the poster hit a nerve”, quite often a good thing and thus a good post. Graying out to me isn’t the same as striking through someone’s text. In polite conversation, the poster would “self-gray-out” their comment in some way, after having made their uncomfortable point to the relevant audience. Agree with the comment about somehow getting greater refinement in negative feedback. The idea should be to create a cultural norm that a downvote is about relevance, clarity, accuracy and not personal taste, political affiliation, cultish taboos. But much like the everpresent need to change someone’s copy, there should be a way to allow certain people to vent that irrepressible urge to say “You’re wrong!”, just in a different manner. More interesting to me is the psychological impact of the downvote. Folks, especially the young, can take it much more seriously than it was meant to be. This might be their first “adult” conversation, so to speak, and the idea is not to squelch them but not to drag down the general tone of discussion either.
    - jolmg 6y ago
      > Folks, especially the young, can take it much more seriously than it was meant to be. Most of the time, we can't know people's ages from their comments, so your apparent conclusion that this is age-related confuses me. > This might be their first “adult” conversation, so to speak, and the idea is not to squelch them but not to drag down the general tone of discussion either. In the adult conversations I've had, people generally show enough respect to give equal weight to all appropriate contributions to the conversation. Dismissively silencing a participant with no explanation is something more exclusively seen among children. > the psychological impact of the downvote. I wouldn't call it a psychological impact. It's just a surprise we all get over. The surprise comes because we seemingly are having a good conversation going as we might in real life. However, the casual graying out seems like a big disparity with etiquette in face-to-face conversations. Personally, I understand it's just a difference that comes with the different medium. The way I see it, flagging is for inapproriate comments like something containing porn, or indisputable hate speech, etc. Graying out is for comments that are not inappropriate but have low signal-to-noise ratio, like "That's cool!", or that go against the guidelines. Upvoting is for conversation subthreads one is interested in, to get them higher and hopefully with more participants. Use of the upvote and downvote are not standardized though, so people use those buttons with different reasons. Same happens with StackExchange.
- Normille 6y ago
  >but it is easy enough to fix by apply user CSS. ..or just highlight the text.
- minimaxir 6y ago
  "Apply user CSS" to fix a design issue was more understandable a decade ago when everyone used desktops exclusively and Firefox w/ Greasemonkey was more prominent. With the current state of the browser ecosystem and more importantly, the shift to mobile devices where it's nontrivial to apply CSS hacks, it's more on the website to make the relevant design changes for user happiness.
underseacables 6y ago
Comment scores should be always available. Some might say HN is copying Reddit but I think it’s just good transparency. I would also love to see more transparency into what dang and other mods are doing; what are they removing, downvoting, upvoting, etc.

jolmg 6y ago

> instead of graying after a single downvote. It currently grays after 2 downvotes. You start at 1, one downvote puts you at 0, then another puts you at -1, and that's when you're grayed.

minimaxir 6y ago
I just checked one of my comments at 0 and that is not correct (there are different levels of graying depending on score, but the graying indeed starts at 0).
- jolmg 6y ago
  Just checked one of my comments and you're right. I wonder if that changed or if I've always been mistaken about that.

zzo38computer 6y ago

I also dislike the comment-graying (my opinion is that it should never apply), but it is easy enough to fix by apply user CSS.

jolmg 6y ago
> but it is easy enough to fix by apply user CSS. That doesn't fix the bandwagoning issue mentioned. Though, personally I don't think it matters in terms of points/karma, though it is annoying to have that bias other readers' opinion on one's comment. One starts off reading with the preconception that it's a bad comment, even if the downvotes are from a disagreement. It's also annoying to be silenced from a disagreement. Graying seems equivalent so responding to someone with a "shut up" which I think anyone would agree is rude.
- onecommentman 6y ago
  That surprises me. I think of graying out more as “the poster hit a nerve”, quite often a good thing and thus a good post. Graying out to me isn’t the same as striking through someone’s text. In polite conversation, the poster would “self-gray-out” their comment in some way, after having made their uncomfortable point to the relevant audience. Agree with the comment about somehow getting greater refinement in negative feedback. The idea should be to create a cultural norm that a downvote is about relevance, clarity, accuracy and not personal taste, political affiliation, cultish taboos. But much like the everpresent need to change someone’s copy, there should be a way to allow certain people to vent that irrepressible urge to say “You’re wrong!”, just in a different manner. More interesting to me is the psychological impact of the downvote. Folks, especially the young, can take it much more seriously than it was meant to be. This might be their first “adult” conversation, so to speak, and the idea is not to squelch them but not to drag down the general tone of discussion either.
  - jolmg 6y ago
    > Folks, especially the young, can take it much more seriously than it was meant to be. Most of the time, we can't know people's ages from their comments, so your apparent conclusion that this is age-related confuses me. > This might be their first “adult” conversation, so to speak, and the idea is not to squelch them but not to drag down the general tone of discussion either. In the adult conversations I've had, people generally show enough respect to give equal weight to all appropriate contributions to the conversation. Dismissively silencing a participant with no explanation is something more exclusively seen among children. > the psychological impact of the downvote. I wouldn't call it a psychological impact. It's just a surprise we all get over. The surprise comes because we seemingly are having a good conversation going as we might in real life. However, the casual graying out seems like a big disparity with etiquette in face-to-face conversations. Personally, I understand it's just a difference that comes with the different medium. The way I see it, flagging is for inapproriate comments like something containing porn, or indisputable hate speech, etc. Graying out is for comments that are not inappropriate but have low signal-to-noise ratio, like "That's cool!", or that go against the guidelines. Upvoting is for conversation subthreads one is interested in, to get them higher and hopefully with more participants. Use of the upvote and downvote are not standardized though, so people use those buttons with different reasons. Same happens with StackExchange.
Normille 6y ago
>but it is easy enough to fix by apply user CSS. ..or just highlight the text.
minimaxir 6y ago
"Apply user CSS" to fix a design issue was more understandable a decade ago when everyone used desktops exclusively and Firefox w/ Greasemonkey was more prominent. With the current state of the browser ecosystem and more importantly, the shift to mobile devices where it's nontrivial to apply CSS hacks, it's more on the website to make the relevant design changes for user happiness.

underseacables 6y ago

Comment scores should be always available. Some might say HN is copying Reddit but I think it’s just good transparency. I would also love to see more transparency into what dang and other mods are doing; what are they removing, downvoting, upvoting, etc.