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This is interesting, I was doing some labor intensive jobs when I was ~13 and then later at ~15. I wonder if I was a major victim? Unfortunately I was victimize
by nxc18 6y ago
This is interesting, I was doing some labor intensive jobs when I was ~13 and then later at ~15. I wonder if I was a major victim? Unfortunately I was victimized by the local farmer and the local supermarket chain, so no easy punching bag.
It’s honestly really tiresome to see people shitting on Apple for not being perfect when it seems they’re just about the only company even making an attempt.
It just doesn’t make sense to demand perfect at all times when the goalpost for perfect is constantly moving and the imperfect players are really trying and making visible improvement.
It reminds me of the protestors demanding the entire city council resign for not defunding the police, ending homelessness, and solving the housing crisis, despite actually making faster-than-could-reasonably-be-expected progress on all.
Can people just grow up please? There are actual bad actors you could be going after.
- system16 6y agoApple gets more focus because they are the richest and most dominant company in the world. They are one of the few who actually could make a difference if they wanted to. They also deserve more scrutiny because they spare no opportunity to claim the moral high ground through over the top virtue signalling.
- zepto 6y agoExcept that they do make more of a difference than anyone else, and people continue to vilify them.
- nescioquid 6y ago> and people continue to vilify them That's not very polite; it sure would hurt my feeling if I were Apple. But happily there will always be people to defend this poor little megacorp should anyone, anywhere have a criticism.
- zepto 6y agoIt’s not really about defending a poor ‘megacorp’. It’s about having a useful and informative conversation about how these things work. When we become obsessed with the idea that everything a corporation does must be evil, it just makes us unable to think clearly. If you have a country where labor violations are the norm, it’s reasonable to expect that they will occur. Nobody has a magic wand that will prevent that. How should a company respond when they do? Immediately cutting the contract is one option, which will immediately put a lot of people out of work, and may do nothing to change the practices of the supplier. It also may simply give the next supplier leverage. If there are only a few suppliers, there is only so many times you can simply fire them. On the other hand, giving them a chance to change, and only firing them when they don’t, is a pretty normal practice.
- Apocryphon 6y agoBecause the corporation makes a lot of money and has a lot of power. Sure, we can drop the vilifying and the moralizing. But these criticisms are still valid even if one was to be less emotional about it. Maybe this story can be framed in terms of a substantiative discussion on the proper relationship between U.S. companies and international vendors wrt labor conditions. Dismissing criticisms out of hand is as unproductive to discussion as automatically attacking the megacorp.
- nescioquid 6y ago> It’s about having a useful and informative conversation about how these things work. Looked to me more like you wanted to shut down conversation. One of us seems to have an attachment to Apple that might be making it hard to think clearly, especially when criticism threatens that attachment. Meeting the low bar of the law for corporations in this country hardly places a corporation beyond criticism. What do you really think the result would have been without the constant fear of blow-back? What sort of trust do you think I or anyone owes to this or any corporation?
- sunshinerag 6y agooh my, cut the virtue singling crap. They didn't get to become a megacorp on any one's back. Apple still represent's its employees and they worked hard to get there when everyone was cheering Bill Gates and Microsoft.
- wizzwizz4 6y agoThey're not the only company making an attempt. Companies with a lot less power are doing a lot more, like https://fairphone.com https://fairphone.com. (Though Apple might be least-worst out of the BIG manufacturers – but abusing their power slightly less than other power-abusers isn't really a thing to congratulate; just condemn less.)
- zepto 6y agoI’d like to see some evidence that a fairphone will outlast an iPhone either in terms of hardware, or in terms of software. I find it highly unlikely.
- tehwebguy 6y agoHow long should Apple have taken to fire a supplier that's violating, like, the most important labor law?
- nxc18 6y agoSee bonestamp2’s top-level comment for why I think 3 years is pretty reasonable. It’s not like firing one shitty worker at McDonald’s, supply chains are complex.
- t-writescode 6y agoThat's a fantastic question! Let's investigate: * How egregious was the violation? * How did the company respond to resolving the violation? * What does the contract say about appropriate investigation levels before the violation is considered a sufficient breach of contract? * What steps does the contract describe for how to handle the breach of contract? Is there a probationary period? Are they allowed multiple actions before the contract is terminated? * How long does that investigation usually take? * What was the supplier currently doing for Apple? * Can someone else supply that load? (even at a higher price) * How long does it take to find an alternative supplier? * How long does it take to sign the contract with the alternative supplier? * How long does it take to get the alternative supplier up to speed on Apple's specifications? * How much will that delay impact projected release dates? * How much will the future-delayed release dates impact stock prices? Each iPhone is probably in the design process for over a year and spinning up the production pipelines may take several. How long does Intel spend on a processor? Companies need to have a considerable stock before they release a product and that all takes time.
- zepto 6y agoAlso consider harm reduction. Investment in a supplier is investment in a community. Canceling the contract vs trying to remedy the situation is a complex decisions.
- dumpHero2 6y agoIt's about respecting the rules. The age limit that they've set is 16. If they are so nonchalant about hiring 14 or 15 year olds, what prevents then from hiring 12 year olds? Also, such lax regulation can also mean that they may have them work for extended periods of time.
- Symbiote 6y agoIt takes about 1 second to find other companies being accused of using child labour (Dell, Microsoft, Tesla, Google, Samsung, Sony), in major newspapers and elsewhere. They all have statements on their websites saying they're trying to stop it. A comparison of the effectiveness of each company's approach would be useful. Without it, you are just defending a company you're personally invested in.
- nxc18 6y agoHow many articles mention those companies actually doing anything about it? My concern here is that when literally everything is an outrage (including doing the right thing, but methodically and not instantaneously), there’s no actual incentive to do the right thing. What articles like this do is remove the incentive to actually try to be better by saying that nothing anyone does will ever be good enough. At least recognize when a group is putting the work in; otherwise why do it? This is ultimately a marketing expense for them and their shareholders. If you destroy the benefits of that marketing to generate link clicks, you also risk destroying the benefits that arise from that marketing. It’s kind of like all the hit pieces about nuclear that completely ignore the thousands of people killed by fossil fuels each year. Perfect is the enemy of good. And no, I’m not personally invested in it. I own no Apple stock. I do have an iPhone but I also have lots of gadgets and other consumer goods made with actual slave labor, conflict minerals, sweat shops, and much more serious labor violations; I’m sure you do, too.
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