4 ms·

Those are the surface level lies. How about the more fundamental narrative lies like the American dream, American exceptionalism. Is it a lie to justify somethi

Those are the surface level lies. How about the more fundamental narrative lies like the American dream, American exceptionalism. Is it a lie to justify something with a technically true reason but hiding your real motivation? Yes, the Obama example is a lie. But it doesn't tell us what the moral rule is. What are the white lies that can be allowed to keep society peaceful, to avoid panic or public discontent?

dragontamer 6y ago
My point is that you are being far too abstract about things. Everything is complicated if you wax philosophical. That's not useful right now. The lies being perpetrated today: Hydroxychloroquine, COVID hoax, the election was stolen, Obama is from Kenya. These are lies. These are not little white lies to make society work. These are blatant shameless power grabs. These lies are destabilizing our country, and numerous leaders are shameless about it.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Those are the easy targets,its not intellectually interesting to me. It's like when atheists were obsessed with debating creationists online some years ago. My point was that people don't have a clear view of what lying precisely is when they say they would never lie due to their morals. Your answer was to bring in Trump stuff. I don't care about Trump stuff. Sure there are overt lies. My point is everyone lies, but defines socially acceptable lines differently. People who are pathological truth tellers don't get far in life.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    > Those are the easy targets If they were easy targets, then my sister, my mother, my sister's husband, my sister's father in law, my uncles, and well over half my family wouldn't believe in those lies. Half my coworkers and over half of my family believes in these lies. I'm not interested in the philosophical, because I'm literally living in the pit of lies with no way to convince my family or coworkers that they've been mislead. I'm having to explain to my own mother, why having 20+ people (including people who were on flights from across the country) over for Thanksgiving is a bad idea. I'm having to explain to my sister why we shouldn't go out and eat at restaurants right now. I'm having to explain to my mom why its important to tell everyone at the Thanksgiving party about a certain partygoer's postive Test Result, and that my mom should help contact trace out of duty to this country alone. And I'm making the calculus of whether or not to expose myself to my own family, who fails to take precautions in this COVID19 era, because they believe in the misinformation. This is my life, and it has been for months. And now I learn my Sister is leaning anti-vax in addition to this whole shebang, because she doesn't seem to take the COVID19 threat on her own health seriously. Maybe your situation is different. Maybe you have time to wax philosophical. But I don't. I'm dealing with the surface level, because that's where the problem is.
    - throwaway201103 6y ago
      Maybe you should let go of the feeling that you are responsible for what these other people believe or chose to do. If you don't want to go to Thanksgiving with 20 people, simply don't go.
      - dragontamer 6y ago
        If my mother is no longer competent to reason on her own, it is my responsibility as the eldest male in the family to take responsibility. Is it not? This is the job of the middle-age: the turnover point where the children begin to take care of their parents (instead of parents taking care of children). As the elderly lose their mental capacity, it falls upon the shoulders of my generation to take care of them.
        webmaven 6y ago
        > If my mother is no longer competent to reason on her own, it is my responsibility as the eldest male in the family to take responsibility. Is it not? Believing this particular set of lies is not, however, a reliable market for mental competence. You yourself note how widespread these ideas are among your family, most of whom are presumptively mentally competent adults. Any chain of reasoning that leads to a conclusion like "half of the country is mentally incompetent" should be suspect. In a way, this whole situation is where a whole suite of ideas like postmodernism, epistemological/cultural/moral relativism etc., come home to roost. After all, these are just alternative facts, and what we hear from so-called experts is just, like, their opinion, man.
        dragontamer 6y ago
        I never claimed that. What I'm saying is: my mother's wellbeing will soon be my direct responsibility. Obviously I'd rather have my mom take care of herself... Less work for me. But her ability to handle money has appreciably degenerated, and now this COVID thing is proving to me that she is unable to fully analyze the news on her own.
- Talanes 6y ago
  A philosophical conversation will accomplish much more in this environment than a listing of political ills.
  - hobs 6y ago
    No, because a philosophical conversation generally doesn't accomplish much. Especially on HN where its basically a either tedious restating of opinions or a way for the idle to trade barbs instead of do anything.
- mrslave 6y ago
  I want to list the lies you omit, not because of my own partisan position, but because of yours. Hillary Clinton wasn't sick (in 2016). (Noone wants to enjoy this but it clearly wasn't the truth.) There's no conflict of interest in Bill getting $75 million/year from speaking engagements, at least some of it from foreigners, while his wife is Secretary of State.[1] Using a private email server for Secretary of State official business is fine. Deleting 33,000 emails deemed private only by Clinton's staff, after subpoena, is fine.[2] James Comey is non-partisan; editing "Grossly negligent" for "Extremely careless." The behavor of FBI agents after the 2016 election results further demonstrates their independence (FBI Agents against Trump SMS messages, "Crossfire Hurricane"?). Bhengazi was not her responsibility. It was really about a YouTube video and not terrorism.[3] [1] https://bernardgoldberg.com/bill-clintons-million-dollar-speech/ https://bernardgoldberg.com/bill-clintons-million-dollar-spe... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/trump-promotes-conspiracy-theory-clinton-s-deleted-emails-are-ukraine-n1058726 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/t... [3] https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-role-benghazi-know-195600379.html https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-role-benghazi-know-19... Look, the 2016 election was a lot of fun from the gallery. Neither Trump nor Clinton is a saint. You've got to get over this partisan view of the world. Neither major party will ever deliver to the people on their top issues: health care (D) and fixing immigration (R). Both will constantly agitate their base with baseless outrage: socialism! (R) and racism! (D). If you're deeply engaged on either side you're stuck.
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    My mom never believed in those issues. And even if she did, I have severe doubts that those issues would have had an effect on my personal family life. I've got creationist family members. I've got cousins who believe that washing their hair is unhealthy and have greasy, smelly hair. Vegetarian cousins. Etc. etc. Lots of silly issues I don't agree with but frankly, have no effect on our lives aside from maybe an idle curiosity. So I really don't care that they disagree with me. This COVID thing, it affects us all.
  - raphlinus 6y ago
    It's amusing. If one were to actually follow your links and start fact-checking, they would see some pretty obvious factual errors in the sources, or cases where the actual source doesn't support the argument made here. If your mission was to be a false flag to reinforce the notion that conservatives just lie, lie, lie to support their positions, because they are incapable of supporting them with facts and reason, then: well done sir! Very good job. In any case, I hope you have a happy new year and stay safe.
soperj 6y ago
>American exceptionalism People truly believe that though, it's why the coronavirus is particularly bad in the US.
- ekanes 6y ago
  It's possible for both to be true. America can be exceptional and value individualism, and that strength (if one agrees it is a strength, separate discussion...) can be a weakness during COVID. Another country could have a weakness (if one agrees it's a weakness, separate discussion) such as authoritarianism or valuing conformity, which is a strength during COVID.
  - antibuddy 6y ago
    Isn't that just another point for shameless lying tho? I mean China just pretends it's over and is done with it for example. Other countries did the same and I kinda see the point, while not exactly agreeing with the approach. The only thing you win with authoritarianism is that you can make the lie true in the public image.
    - ekanes 6y ago
      Authoritarianism imho is pretty much always bad. I'm mostly pointing out that IN THEORY :) if a country was authoritarian AND benevolent, then it could be a strength during COVID.
  - pdonis 6y ago
    Individualism does not have to be a weakness during a situation like COVID. Refusing to take obvious common sense precautions simply because you don't like the fact that the government is telling you to do it is not individualism, it's stupidity. In fact, individualists would have been taking precautions against COVID well before the government was telling anyone to do it (see further comments below). Nor is authoritarianism or valuing conformity necessarily a strength during a situation like COVID. South Korea and China both took authoritarian approaches, but they were very different authoritarian approaches with very different human costs. South Korea wasn't welding people inside their homes. As for valuing conformity, people who valued conformity in the US, for example, were waiting until the government told them to take precautions before they took precautions--which was too late. My wife and I started taking precautions at the end of February, at which time the government and other authorities were still saying that things weren't going to get that bad and everyone should keep traveling and not worry so much. By the time the government started telling people to take precautions, we were already weeks into exponential growth. And then, of course, things swung to the other extreme and we started slamming barn doors shut and barring them after the horses had already left.

dragontamer 6y ago

My point is that you are being far too abstract about things. Everything is complicated if you wax philosophical. That's not useful right now. The lies being perpetrated today: Hydroxychloroquine, COVID hoax, the election was stolen, Obama is from Kenya. These are lies. These are not little white lies to make society work. These are blatant shameless power grabs. These lies are destabilizing our country, and numerous leaders are shameless about it.

bonoboTP 6y ago
Those are the easy targets,its not intellectually interesting to me. It's like when atheists were obsessed with debating creationists online some years ago. My point was that people don't have a clear view of what lying precisely is when they say they would never lie due to their morals. Your answer was to bring in Trump stuff. I don't care about Trump stuff. Sure there are overt lies. My point is everyone lies, but defines socially acceptable lines differently. People who are pathological truth tellers don't get far in life.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  > Those are the easy targets If they were easy targets, then my sister, my mother, my sister's husband, my sister's father in law, my uncles, and well over half my family wouldn't believe in those lies. Half my coworkers and over half of my family believes in these lies. I'm not interested in the philosophical, because I'm literally living in the pit of lies with no way to convince my family or coworkers that they've been mislead. I'm having to explain to my own mother, why having 20+ people (including people who were on flights from across the country) over for Thanksgiving is a bad idea. I'm having to explain to my sister why we shouldn't go out and eat at restaurants right now. I'm having to explain to my mom why its important to tell everyone at the Thanksgiving party about a certain partygoer's postive Test Result, and that my mom should help contact trace out of duty to this country alone. And I'm making the calculus of whether or not to expose myself to my own family, who fails to take precautions in this COVID19 era, because they believe in the misinformation. This is my life, and it has been for months. And now I learn my Sister is leaning anti-vax in addition to this whole shebang, because she doesn't seem to take the COVID19 threat on her own health seriously. Maybe your situation is different. Maybe you have time to wax philosophical. But I don't. I'm dealing with the surface level, because that's where the problem is.
  - throwaway201103 6y ago
    Maybe you should let go of the feeling that you are responsible for what these other people believe or chose to do. If you don't want to go to Thanksgiving with 20 people, simply don't go.
    - dragontamer 6y ago
      If my mother is no longer competent to reason on her own, it is my responsibility as the eldest male in the family to take responsibility. Is it not? This is the job of the middle-age: the turnover point where the children begin to take care of their parents (instead of parents taking care of children). As the elderly lose their mental capacity, it falls upon the shoulders of my generation to take care of them.
      - webmaven 6y ago
        > If my mother is no longer competent to reason on her own, it is my responsibility as the eldest male in the family to take responsibility. Is it not? Believing this particular set of lies is not, however, a reliable market for mental competence. You yourself note how widespread these ideas are among your family, most of whom are presumptively mentally competent adults. Any chain of reasoning that leads to a conclusion like "half of the country is mentally incompetent" should be suspect. In a way, this whole situation is where a whole suite of ideas like postmodernism, epistemological/cultural/moral relativism etc., come home to roost. After all, these are just alternative facts, and what we hear from so-called experts is just, like, their opinion, man.
        dragontamer 6y ago
        I never claimed that. What I'm saying is: my mother's wellbeing will soon be my direct responsibility. Obviously I'd rather have my mom take care of herself... Less work for me. But her ability to handle money has appreciably degenerated, and now this COVID thing is proving to me that she is unable to fully analyze the news on her own.
Talanes 6y ago
A philosophical conversation will accomplish much more in this environment than a listing of political ills.
- hobs 6y ago
  No, because a philosophical conversation generally doesn't accomplish much. Especially on HN where its basically a either tedious restating of opinions or a way for the idle to trade barbs instead of do anything.
mrslave 6y ago
I want to list the lies you omit, not because of my own partisan position, but because of yours. Hillary Clinton wasn't sick (in 2016). (Noone wants to enjoy this but it clearly wasn't the truth.) There's no conflict of interest in Bill getting $75 million/year from speaking engagements, at least some of it from foreigners, while his wife is Secretary of State.[1] Using a private email server for Secretary of State official business is fine. Deleting 33,000 emails deemed private only by Clinton's staff, after subpoena, is fine.[2] James Comey is non-partisan; editing "Grossly negligent" for "Extremely careless." The behavor of FBI agents after the 2016 election results further demonstrates their independence (FBI Agents against Trump SMS messages, "Crossfire Hurricane"?). Bhengazi was not her responsibility. It was really about a YouTube video and not terrorism.[3] [1] https://bernardgoldberg.com/bill-clintons-million-dollar-speech/ https://bernardgoldberg.com/bill-clintons-million-dollar-spe... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/trump-promotes-conspiracy-theory-clinton-s-deleted-emails-are-ukraine-n1058726 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/t... [3] https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-role-benghazi-know-195600379.html https://news.yahoo.com/hillary-clinton-role-benghazi-know-19... Look, the 2016 election was a lot of fun from the gallery. Neither Trump nor Clinton is a saint. You've got to get over this partisan view of the world. Neither major party will ever deliver to the people on their top issues: health care (D) and fixing immigration (R). Both will constantly agitate their base with baseless outrage: socialism! (R) and racism! (D). If you're deeply engaged on either side you're stuck.
- dragontamer 6y ago
  My mom never believed in those issues. And even if she did, I have severe doubts that those issues would have had an effect on my personal family life. I've got creationist family members. I've got cousins who believe that washing their hair is unhealthy and have greasy, smelly hair. Vegetarian cousins. Etc. etc. Lots of silly issues I don't agree with but frankly, have no effect on our lives aside from maybe an idle curiosity. So I really don't care that they disagree with me. This COVID thing, it affects us all.
- raphlinus 6y ago
  It's amusing. If one were to actually follow your links and start fact-checking, they would see some pretty obvious factual errors in the sources, or cases where the actual source doesn't support the argument made here. If your mission was to be a false flag to reinforce the notion that conservatives just lie, lie, lie to support their positions, because they are incapable of supporting them with facts and reason, then: well done sir! Very good job. In any case, I hope you have a happy new year and stay safe.

soperj 6y ago

>American exceptionalism People truly believe that though, it's why the coronavirus is particularly bad in the US.

ekanes 6y ago
It's possible for both to be true. America can be exceptional and value individualism, and that strength (if one agrees it is a strength, separate discussion...) can be a weakness during COVID. Another country could have a weakness (if one agrees it's a weakness, separate discussion) such as authoritarianism or valuing conformity, which is a strength during COVID.
- antibuddy 6y ago
  Isn't that just another point for shameless lying tho? I mean China just pretends it's over and is done with it for example. Other countries did the same and I kinda see the point, while not exactly agreeing with the approach. The only thing you win with authoritarianism is that you can make the lie true in the public image.
  - ekanes 6y ago
    Authoritarianism imho is pretty much always bad. I'm mostly pointing out that IN THEORY :) if a country was authoritarian AND benevolent, then it could be a strength during COVID.
- pdonis 6y ago
  Individualism does not have to be a weakness during a situation like COVID. Refusing to take obvious common sense precautions simply because you don't like the fact that the government is telling you to do it is not individualism, it's stupidity. In fact, individualists would have been taking precautions against COVID well before the government was telling anyone to do it (see further comments below). Nor is authoritarianism or valuing conformity necessarily a strength during a situation like COVID. South Korea and China both took authoritarian approaches, but they were very different authoritarian approaches with very different human costs. South Korea wasn't welding people inside their homes. As for valuing conformity, people who valued conformity in the US, for example, were waiting until the government told them to take precautions before they took precautions--which was too late. My wife and I started taking precautions at the end of February, at which time the government and other authorities were still saying that things weren't going to get that bad and everyone should keep traveling and not worry so much. By the time the government started telling people to take precautions, we were already weeks into exponential growth. And then, of course, things swung to the other extreme and we started slamming barn doors shut and barring them after the horses had already left.