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Couldn't disagree more. Humanity has developed a society with acceptable norms to make life more enjoyable for everybody. One of the important things school doe

by dolni 6y ago

Couldn't disagree more. Humanity has developed a society with acceptable norms to make life more enjoyable for everybody. One of the important things school does is socialize kids. If a stranger breaks into your home and kills your kid, the natural response for a lot of people is to kill the person that did it. There are a lot of reasons why we _don't_ allow that in civilized countries. People have to be socialized to reject that natural behavior. More to school children, they as adults will not be successful if they frequently act impulsively. Adulthood in society is finding a fulfilling career, maintaining healthy relationships, paying your bills on time, and setting fulfilling long term goals for yourself. None of those things are helped by impulsive behavior.

meatandcheese 6y ago
* There's a massive gulf between revenge killing and boys fidgeting. * Development is different than adulthood. Your argument is like saying breast feeding a child is crippling it's ability to integrate into society later in life. * I haven't seen any compelling evidence that you can train impulsiveness out of a child. You have a lot more faith in public schools than I do if you think language arts workbooks have that effect.
- dolni 6y ago
  > There's a massive gulf between revenge killing and boys fidgeting. I mean... no shit? The point wasn't to compare revenge killing to fidgeting. The point was to illustrate that impulse control is necessary for a civilized society to function. > Development is different than adulthood. Your argument is like saying breast feeding a child is crippling it's ability to integrate into society later in life. It's frankly insulting that you would take the stupidest possible interpretation of my argument, make a counterargument, and claim slam dunk. How do you think it is that kids become adults? Do you just let kids run wild, controlling none of their impulses, and then they turn 18 and suddenly they're in full control of themselves? That's absolutely laughable. It's development for a reason: you're _developing_ the kids. They are going to be at a lower level of ability than an adult with regards to impulse control. That's why you start to teach them. Babies can't chew hard food. It's impossible. So you don't give them hard food. It's _NOT_ impossible to teach a kid to control some of their undesirable impulses. > I haven't seen any compelling evidence that you can train impulsiveness out of a child. You have a lot more faith in public schools than I do if you think language arts workbooks have that effect. Uh... wat? No, you can't train _all_ impulsiveness out of anybody. But you can absolutely train people to recognize and mitigate negative impulses. Almost the very first skill any kid learns is to control the impulse of blurting out when they want to speak in a classroom. They are taught that they should raise their hand and wait to be called on. And lots of parents have to teach their kids that they can't hit other kids.
tw25594396 6y ago
> One of the important things prison does is socialize inmates.
- dolni 6y ago
  What point are you trying to make by misquoting me? Are you trying to compare public school to prison?
  - tw25594396 6y ago
    > Are you trying to compare public school to prison? With respect to how both environments force humans to adapt to the institution, and thereby manifest a perverse socialization, yes. The differences are in magnitude, not direction. I'm reminded of the flawed "alpha" theory of wolf behavior. Turns out the observed dominance struggles were directly related to being in captivity; this form of "socialization" doesn't emerge in the wild.
    - dolni 6y ago
      Sounds like you'd rather we just all live in tribes in the wild. I, for one, appreciate not having to worry about going hungry, dying of thirst, freezing to death, or being chased down by a pack of wolves. You need a society to facilitate that. Society doesn't work without social norms. And you wouldn't be on Hacker News speculating about this if not for society.
      - winston_smith 6y ago
        Now you're the one misrepresenting him. We can have society without a school system that abuses kids, and for that matter, a prison system that's much less abusive as well.
        dolni 6y ago
        I don't see where the misrepresentation is. Are you trying to say that we can have a functional society without raising people to put aside primitive impulses for the good of everyone? Because it should be obvious that is impossible. Also, where are you getting this idea that kids in school are abused?

by dolni 6y ago

meatandcheese 6y ago

* There's a massive gulf between revenge killing and boys fidgeting. * Development is different than adulthood. Your argument is like saying breast feeding a child is crippling it's ability to integrate into society later in life. * I haven't seen any compelling evidence that you can train impulsiveness out of a child. You have a lot more faith in public schools than I do if you think language arts workbooks have that effect.

dolni 6y ago
> There's a massive gulf between revenge killing and boys fidgeting. I mean... no shit? The point wasn't to compare revenge killing to fidgeting. The point was to illustrate that impulse control is necessary for a civilized society to function. > Development is different than adulthood. Your argument is like saying breast feeding a child is crippling it's ability to integrate into society later in life. It's frankly insulting that you would take the stupidest possible interpretation of my argument, make a counterargument, and claim slam dunk. How do you think it is that kids become adults? Do you just let kids run wild, controlling none of their impulses, and then they turn 18 and suddenly they're in full control of themselves? That's absolutely laughable. It's development for a reason: you're _developing_ the kids. They are going to be at a lower level of ability than an adult with regards to impulse control. That's why you start to teach them. Babies can't chew hard food. It's impossible. So you don't give them hard food. It's _NOT_ impossible to teach a kid to control some of their undesirable impulses. > I haven't seen any compelling evidence that you can train impulsiveness out of a child. You have a lot more faith in public schools than I do if you think language arts workbooks have that effect. Uh... wat? No, you can't train _all_ impulsiveness out of anybody. But you can absolutely train people to recognize and mitigate negative impulses. Almost the very first skill any kid learns is to control the impulse of blurting out when they want to speak in a classroom. They are taught that they should raise their hand and wait to be called on. And lots of parents have to teach their kids that they can't hit other kids.

tw25594396 6y ago

> One of the important things prison does is socialize inmates.

dolni 6y ago
What point are you trying to make by misquoting me? Are you trying to compare public school to prison?
- tw25594396 6y ago
  > Are you trying to compare public school to prison? With respect to how both environments force humans to adapt to the institution, and thereby manifest a perverse socialization, yes. The differences are in magnitude, not direction. I'm reminded of the flawed "alpha" theory of wolf behavior. Turns out the observed dominance struggles were directly related to being in captivity; this form of "socialization" doesn't emerge in the wild.
  - dolni 6y ago
    Sounds like you'd rather we just all live in tribes in the wild. I, for one, appreciate not having to worry about going hungry, dying of thirst, freezing to death, or being chased down by a pack of wolves. You need a society to facilitate that. Society doesn't work without social norms. And you wouldn't be on Hacker News speculating about this if not for society.
    - winston_smith 6y ago
      Now you're the one misrepresenting him. We can have society without a school system that abuses kids, and for that matter, a prison system that's much less abusive as well.
      - dolni 6y ago
        I don't see where the misrepresentation is. Are you trying to say that we can have a functional society without raising people to put aside primitive impulses for the good of everyone? Because it should be obvious that is impossible. Also, where are you getting this idea that kids in school are abused?