5 ms·

Really looking forward to see how the EU respond here with Turkey vs, say, China or Google or FB. It's just interesting to me how values change depending on who

Really looking forward to see how the EU respond here with Turkey vs, say, China or Google or FB. It's just interesting to me how values change depending on whom you're talking to.

zentiggr 6y ago
Politics is the general relativity of human relations. There is no absolute frame of reference.
- briantakita 6y ago
  Religion (with Theology/Philosophy) is the absolute frame of reference of human relations.
  - zentiggr 6y ago
    I'm sorry, but with my (admittedly broad and _shallow_) view of religious history, trying to see human relations through the filter of religion seems at least as fluid and relative as politics. So much individual human mucking about with what could be basic universal principles. On one end, people who say that "this version of this written word is God's literal truth" when their version has a known history of edits, blatant rewrites, and translation errors. On the other end, recently started religions (Jainism is the first but not by far the only) that are at least as valid in their core principles but have their own dogma and assumptions. Throw in Quakers etc who believe in a direct personal relationship with their God, and I can't see any consistency except "believe in us, and convince your friends! Their soul is in peril if they aren't with us!"
Alupis 6y ago
Erdogan has been a loose canon for a long time, and I suspect is only tolerated because of Turkey's precarious NATO membership.
- Tomte 6y ago
  No, because the EU's refugee deal with Turkey is paramount. Without it there are more refugees in Germany (and other "core" EU countries), and the tense political atmosphere tips over.
  - foolmeonce 6y ago
    Yes, but given past issues, the German government response is most likely to push/penalize Youtube into no longer helping Erdogan while ignoring any direct confrontation. Yet another YouTube ban in Turkey should work for almost everyone.
  - systemvoltage 6y ago
    Why aren't neighboring countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran, Ethiopia, etc. taking in 100% of the refugees? Can someone shed some light about refugee situation around NATO/EU? While humanitarian aspects must be taken care of, I only see refugee situation in Germany as a negative thing. It brings nothing to the country, and in fact brings other nonsense such as religious fundamentalism. These people are not going to assimilate into German culture. Edit: I know you’re downvoting based on political stance. Would be great if we can engage in a discussion. Could you share your thoughts please?
    - xxpor 6y ago
      That's the same thing people said about the Gastarbeiter in the 70s.
    - pjc50 6y ago
      > Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran They don't want to, and disregard the human rights of large numbers of people already in the country. > Ethiopia Can't afford to. There is no solution without ending the war, and there's no solution to that without addressing the forces keeping it going. It's like many of the Cold War conflicts, a proxy for wars not being fought with Russia.
      - 6y ago
cblconfederate 6y ago
> Speaking to the Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa), [German Foreign Minister] Maas said: “I do not find the demand of an arms embargo against Turkey strategically correct. It is not easy to do this against a NATO partner. We saw that NATO ally Turkey easily bought missiles from Russia because it could not buy from the U.S.” https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/eu-affairs/german-fm-maas-turns-down-greeces-call-for-arms-embargo-on-turkey https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/eu-affairs/german-fm-maa... > At a summit on Friday, EU leaders agreed to prepare limited sanctions on Turkish individuals over a row with Greece and Cyprus about offshore energy exploration, but postponed discussions on any harsher steps until March. https://www.ekathimerini.com/260286/article/ekathimerini/news/turkey-says-it-wont-abandon-east-med-rights-over-eu-sanctions-threat https://www.ekathimerini.com/260286/article/ekathimerini/new...
metroholografix 6y ago
It's telling that only an outgoing US administration decided to -weakly- sanction Turkey over the Russian missile fiasco. The European Union looks more and more like a banking cartel than a federation of nation states. Germany and Spain, that vehemently opposed sanctions in the last eurogroup, are doing good business selling weapons to Turkey. Weapons, that are then used by Turkey to openly threaten Greece and Cyprus. There was a slight concession in 2019, with a temporary stop on new contracts being awarded, but that obviously did not affect existing ones.
- SoSoRoCoCo 6y ago
  Is there any country that makes weapons that doesn't sell them for a hefty profit? Hell, in the past decade the Americans have funded the death of their own troops by selling rocket launchers and bombs to the Saudis that are resold/handed out and used in Afghanistan and Iraq. I recommend the 1980's "Deal of the Century" with Chevy Chase and Gregory Hines. It's a black comedy about the insanity of countries selling weapons to their own enemies.
- aduitsis 6y ago
  The Congress cancelling a deal to sell a 100 F-35s along with some of their parts being produced in Turkey hardly sounds like a weak sanction.
- MrMorden 6y ago
  Turkey's S-400 system was both contracted for and delivered during the Trump administration. We'll see what the US does or doesn't do when the president isn't the weakest since Harrison.
disown 6y ago
What values are you speaking of? Censorship is and has been alive and well in germany for a long time. You can even say germany has no conception of free speech, they just mimic it. Germany is the inspiration of censorship around the world. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdowns-inspired-the-worlds-dictators-russia-venezuela-india/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdow... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170720/01434337827/russia-does-copy-paste-germanys-new-hate-speech-online-censorship-law.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170720/01434337827/russi...

Really looking forward to see how the EU respond here with Turkey vs, say, China or Google or FB. It's just interesting to me how values change depending on whom you're talking to.

zentiggr 6y ago

Politics is the general relativity of human relations. There is no absolute frame of reference.

briantakita 6y ago
Religion (with Theology/Philosophy) is the absolute frame of reference of human relations.
- zentiggr 6y ago
  I'm sorry, but with my (admittedly broad and _shallow_) view of religious history, trying to see human relations through the filter of religion seems at least as fluid and relative as politics. So much individual human mucking about with what could be basic universal principles. On one end, people who say that "this version of this written word is God's literal truth" when their version has a known history of edits, blatant rewrites, and translation errors. On the other end, recently started religions (Jainism is the first but not by far the only) that are at least as valid in their core principles but have their own dogma and assumptions. Throw in Quakers etc who believe in a direct personal relationship with their God, and I can't see any consistency except "believe in us, and convince your friends! Their soul is in peril if they aren't with us!"

Alupis 6y ago

Erdogan has been a loose canon for a long time, and I suspect is only tolerated because of Turkey's precarious NATO membership.

Tomte 6y ago
No, because the EU's refugee deal with Turkey is paramount. Without it there are more refugees in Germany (and other "core" EU countries), and the tense political atmosphere tips over.
- foolmeonce 6y ago
  Yes, but given past issues, the German government response is most likely to push/penalize Youtube into no longer helping Erdogan while ignoring any direct confrontation. Yet another YouTube ban in Turkey should work for almost everyone.
- systemvoltage 6y ago
  Why aren't neighboring countries like Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran, Ethiopia, etc. taking in 100% of the refugees? Can someone shed some light about refugee situation around NATO/EU? While humanitarian aspects must be taken care of, I only see refugee situation in Germany as a negative thing. It brings nothing to the country, and in fact brings other nonsense such as religious fundamentalism. These people are not going to assimilate into German culture. Edit: I know you’re downvoting based on political stance. Would be great if we can engage in a discussion. Could you share your thoughts please?
  - xxpor 6y ago
    That's the same thing people said about the Gastarbeiter in the 70s.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    > Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iran They don't want to, and disregard the human rights of large numbers of people already in the country. > Ethiopia Can't afford to. There is no solution without ending the war, and there's no solution to that without addressing the forces keeping it going. It's like many of the Cold War conflicts, a proxy for wars not being fought with Russia.
    - 6y ago

cblconfederate 6y ago

> Speaking to the Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa), [German Foreign Minister] Maas said: “I do not find the demand of an arms embargo against Turkey strategically correct. It is not easy to do this against a NATO partner. We saw that NATO ally Turkey easily bought missiles from Russia because it could not buy from the U.S.” https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/eu-affairs/german-fm-maas-turns-down-greeces-call-for-arms-embargo-on-turkey https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/eu-affairs/german-fm-maa... > At a summit on Friday, EU leaders agreed to prepare limited sanctions on Turkish individuals over a row with Greece and Cyprus about offshore energy exploration, but postponed discussions on any harsher steps until March. https://www.ekathimerini.com/260286/article/ekathimerini/news/turkey-says-it-wont-abandon-east-med-rights-over-eu-sanctions-threat https://www.ekathimerini.com/260286/article/ekathimerini/new...

metroholografix 6y ago

It's telling that only an outgoing US administration decided to -weakly- sanction Turkey over the Russian missile fiasco. The European Union looks more and more like a banking cartel than a federation of nation states. Germany and Spain, that vehemently opposed sanctions in the last eurogroup, are doing good business selling weapons to Turkey. Weapons, that are then used by Turkey to openly threaten Greece and Cyprus. There was a slight concession in 2019, with a temporary stop on new contracts being awarded, but that obviously did not affect existing ones.

SoSoRoCoCo 6y ago
Is there any country that makes weapons that doesn't sell them for a hefty profit? Hell, in the past decade the Americans have funded the death of their own troops by selling rocket launchers and bombs to the Saudis that are resold/handed out and used in Afghanistan and Iraq. I recommend the 1980's "Deal of the Century" with Chevy Chase and Gregory Hines. It's a black comedy about the insanity of countries selling weapons to their own enemies.
aduitsis 6y ago
The Congress cancelling a deal to sell a 100 F-35s along with some of their parts being produced in Turkey hardly sounds like a weak sanction.
MrMorden 6y ago
Turkey's S-400 system was both contracted for and delivered during the Trump administration. We'll see what the US does or doesn't do when the president isn't the weakest since Harrison.

disown 6y ago

What values are you speaking of? Censorship is and has been alive and well in germany for a long time. You can even say germany has no conception of free speech, they just mimic it. Germany is the inspiration of censorship around the world. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdowns-inspired-the-worlds-dictators-russia-venezuela-india/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdow... https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170720/01434337827/russia-does-copy-paste-germanys-new-hate-speech-online-censorship-law.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170720/01434337827/russi...