7 ms·

What is lying exactly? I find that most people claim to have a moral rule against lying but have idiosyncratic definitions of what that is. I saw a lecture vid

What is lying exactly? I find that most people claim to have a moral rule against lying but have idiosyncratic definitions of what that is. I saw a lecture video the other day where the speaker told an anecdote about how he got to work at a fancy place with a person he looked up to. To get a chance at talking to him, he said he'll be in town next week for a conference and they could grab lunch together one day. The conference was a lie, he just didn't want to look so desperate that he'd fly in just for this chance at a lunch discussion. Had he laid his cards bare, maybe the important person would have felt more pressure that if he accepts the lunch invitation then he already owes him something because the guy went through all the trouble to fly in. So by lying, our guy took pressure off the situation and got a relaxed discussion and eventually the gig. This is just one example. How about negotiation strategies? How about lying implicitly by misrepresenting yourself through clothing or otherwise? How about downplaying your romantic interest a bit, to avoid scaring away or overwhelming your desired partner? How about lying by omission? It just isn't socially feasible to be always reporting true statements of fact without some hint of "manipulation". I mean even just putting up a poker face while you're very nervous is a form of misrepresenting your inner state of mind. Selling anything, including yourself in a job interview or at a date requires downplaying weaknesses and emphasizing strengths in a very partisan and totally not neutral and balanced factual way. Outright lying is for losers. You can achieve the same goals and more by just being good at technically not lying or lying in socially acceptable ways. (similar to how crime is for losers and the big players get laws written according to their interests). People protect their self image with so many patterns like: "I would never X (lie, cheat on a partner,...)" "How about that time when" "well, that doesn't count, it's complicated, I had reasons" etc. There aren't any hard and fast rules.

dragontamer 6y ago
What is lying? You are overcomplicating things. Insinuating that Obama was born in Kenya was a lie. It's nowhere as hard as you are making it out to be. That a politician can launch a national campaign on such a lie is proof of the disfunction of our system.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Those are the surface level lies. How about the more fundamental narrative lies like the American dream, American exceptionalism. Is it a lie to justify something with a technically true reason but hiding your real motivation? Yes, the Obama example is a lie. But it doesn't tell us what the moral rule is. What are the white lies that can be allowed to keep society peaceful, to avoid panic or public discontent?
  - dragontamer 6y ago
    My point is that you are being far too abstract about things. Everything is complicated if you wax philosophical. That's not useful right now. The lies being perpetrated today: Hydroxychloroquine, COVID hoax, the election was stolen, Obama is from Kenya. These are lies. These are not little white lies to make society work. These are blatant shameless power grabs. These lies are destabilizing our country, and numerous leaders are shameless about it.
    - bonoboTP 6y ago
      Those are the easy targets,its not intellectually interesting to me. It's like when atheists were obsessed with debating creationists online some years ago. My point was that people don't have a clear view of what lying precisely is when they say they would never lie due to their morals. Your answer was to bring in Trump stuff. I don't care about Trump stuff. Sure there are overt lies. My point is everyone lies, but defines socially acceptable lines differently. People who are pathological truth tellers don't get far in life.
      - dragontamer 6y ago
        > Those are the easy targets If they were easy targets, then my sister, my mother, my sister's husband, my sister's father in law, my uncles, and well over half my family wouldn't believe in those lies. Half my coworkers and over half of my family believes in these lies. I'm not interested in the philosophical, because I'm literally living in the pit of lies with no way to convince my family or coworkers that they've been mislead. I'm having to explain to my own mother, why having 20+ people (including people who were on flights from across the country) over for Thanksgiving is a bad idea. I'm having to explain to my sister why we shouldn't go out and eat at restaurants right now. I'm having to explain to my mom why its important to tell everyone at the Thanksgiving party about a certain partygoer's postive Test Result, and that my mom should help contact trace out of duty to this country alone. And I'm making the calculus of whether or not to expose myself to my own family, who fails to take precautions in this COVID19 era, because they believe in the misinformation. This is my life, and it has been for months. And now I learn my Sister is leaning anti-vax in addition to this whole shebang, because she doesn't seem to take the COVID19 threat on her own health seriously. Maybe your situation is different. Maybe you have time to wax philosophical. But I don't. I'm dealing with the surface level, because that's where the problem is.
mef 6y ago
I doubt it’s news to anyone reading here that there are varying levels of socially acceptable lying. What this doesn’t address and what I think parent comment is about it becoming more socially acceptable, even celebrated by some, to lie at a level that previously would trigger a shaming.
jancsika 6y ago
> This is just one example. Of lying. We even have a name for that category of lie-- the white lie, or fib-- where the cost of the lie is sufficiently small and self-contained.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  Right, but my parent comment said > My personal moral code is that lying is bad; this is an article of faith for me, a central tenet of my religion To which I say it's a big simplification. Rules like this have all sorts of exceptions. If you say you never lie, it's highly likely you're lying or just have weak introspective skills.
  - raphlinus 6y ago
    By the way, I don't say I never lie, just something that I aspire to. The classic test case is: what if the Nazis are at the door, asking whether you're harboring a Jewish refugee in your attic. I personally would lie in this case, and I believe most Quakers would as well. A more subtle example: exaggerating the effects of climate change to motivate people to take action, for example claiming that Miami will be underwater in our lifetimes if we don't act. A lot of people I know do fudge the truth in this way, even if it isn't a conscious act of lying. I personally am not in favor, partly as a matter of faith, partly because I don't think it's an effective longer term strategy, but at the same time I think the argument for it is defensible. BTW, a very good inquiry using that particular example is Dan Ariely's interview on Amanpour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLheBtBpZQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLheBtBpZQw ; this example comes up at about 14:10. I can really recommend watching it, as Ariely is really trying to understand human behavior, not just retconning principles to justify his personal positions.
    - wtvanhest 6y ago
      Your Miami example is a very politically charged statement that the left makes in this country while the right makes an opposite statement that there is no global warming at all. Both lies are used to gain political power by Politicians. Both lies cause real harm. Saying the lie about Miami while simultaneously saying you can lie about it due to your faith is as wrong as the right saying there is no chance global warming is real.
winston_smith 6y ago
I've tried white lies like that and had them immediately backfire, plus they make me feel dishonest. "How is the conference going? Oh, great. I thought about going myself but didn't see any when I googled it. What was it called again?" With a little thought you can almost always avoid dishonesty. "Hey, I'm thinking of visiting your town next week. Could we get lunch?". Reputation matters.
throwaway2245 6y ago
> he said he'll be in town next week for a conference and they could grab lunch together one day. The conference was a lie This seems a totally pointless lie. Based on this story, I no longer trust this speaker. And, whatever advantage they thought they were hedging with this lie could have been achieved without it. I find the choice to lie here to indicate a kind of sociopathy - by the literal definition. Or, at least a complete lack of self-confidence.

dragontamer 6y ago

What is lying? You are overcomplicating things. Insinuating that Obama was born in Kenya was a lie. It's nowhere as hard as you are making it out to be. That a politician can launch a national campaign on such a lie is proof of the disfunction of our system.

bonoboTP 6y ago
Those are the surface level lies. How about the more fundamental narrative lies like the American dream, American exceptionalism. Is it a lie to justify something with a technically true reason but hiding your real motivation? Yes, the Obama example is a lie. But it doesn't tell us what the moral rule is. What are the white lies that can be allowed to keep society peaceful, to avoid panic or public discontent?
- dragontamer 6y ago
  My point is that you are being far too abstract about things. Everything is complicated if you wax philosophical. That's not useful right now. The lies being perpetrated today: Hydroxychloroquine, COVID hoax, the election was stolen, Obama is from Kenya. These are lies. These are not little white lies to make society work. These are blatant shameless power grabs. These lies are destabilizing our country, and numerous leaders are shameless about it.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    Those are the easy targets,its not intellectually interesting to me. It's like when atheists were obsessed with debating creationists online some years ago. My point was that people don't have a clear view of what lying precisely is when they say they would never lie due to their morals. Your answer was to bring in Trump stuff. I don't care about Trump stuff. Sure there are overt lies. My point is everyone lies, but defines socially acceptable lines differently. People who are pathological truth tellers don't get far in life.
    - dragontamer 6y ago
      > Those are the easy targets If they were easy targets, then my sister, my mother, my sister's husband, my sister's father in law, my uncles, and well over half my family wouldn't believe in those lies. Half my coworkers and over half of my family believes in these lies. I'm not interested in the philosophical, because I'm literally living in the pit of lies with no way to convince my family or coworkers that they've been mislead. I'm having to explain to my own mother, why having 20+ people (including people who were on flights from across the country) over for Thanksgiving is a bad idea. I'm having to explain to my sister why we shouldn't go out and eat at restaurants right now. I'm having to explain to my mom why its important to tell everyone at the Thanksgiving party about a certain partygoer's postive Test Result, and that my mom should help contact trace out of duty to this country alone. And I'm making the calculus of whether or not to expose myself to my own family, who fails to take precautions in this COVID19 era, because they believe in the misinformation. This is my life, and it has been for months. And now I learn my Sister is leaning anti-vax in addition to this whole shebang, because she doesn't seem to take the COVID19 threat on her own health seriously. Maybe your situation is different. Maybe you have time to wax philosophical. But I don't. I'm dealing with the surface level, because that's where the problem is.

mef 6y ago

I doubt it’s news to anyone reading here that there are varying levels of socially acceptable lying. What this doesn’t address and what I think parent comment is about it becoming more socially acceptable, even celebrated by some, to lie at a level that previously would trigger a shaming.

jancsika 6y ago

> This is just one example. Of lying. We even have a name for that category of lie-- the white lie, or fib-- where the cost of the lie is sufficiently small and self-contained.

bonoboTP 6y ago
Right, but my parent comment said > My personal moral code is that lying is bad; this is an article of faith for me, a central tenet of my religion To which I say it's a big simplification. Rules like this have all sorts of exceptions. If you say you never lie, it's highly likely you're lying or just have weak introspective skills.
- raphlinus 6y ago
  By the way, I don't say I never lie, just something that I aspire to. The classic test case is: what if the Nazis are at the door, asking whether you're harboring a Jewish refugee in your attic. I personally would lie in this case, and I believe most Quakers would as well. A more subtle example: exaggerating the effects of climate change to motivate people to take action, for example claiming that Miami will be underwater in our lifetimes if we don't act. A lot of people I know do fudge the truth in this way, even if it isn't a conscious act of lying. I personally am not in favor, partly as a matter of faith, partly because I don't think it's an effective longer term strategy, but at the same time I think the argument for it is defensible. BTW, a very good inquiry using that particular example is Dan Ariely's interview on Amanpour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLheBtBpZQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLheBtBpZQw ; this example comes up at about 14:10. I can really recommend watching it, as Ariely is really trying to understand human behavior, not just retconning principles to justify his personal positions.
  - wtvanhest 6y ago
    Your Miami example is a very politically charged statement that the left makes in this country while the right makes an opposite statement that there is no global warming at all. Both lies are used to gain political power by Politicians. Both lies cause real harm. Saying the lie about Miami while simultaneously saying you can lie about it due to your faith is as wrong as the right saying there is no chance global warming is real.

winston_smith 6y ago

I've tried white lies like that and had them immediately backfire, plus they make me feel dishonest. "How is the conference going? Oh, great. I thought about going myself but didn't see any when I googled it. What was it called again?" With a little thought you can almost always avoid dishonesty. "Hey, I'm thinking of visiting your town next week. Could we get lunch?". Reputation matters.

throwaway2245 6y ago

> he said he'll be in town next week for a conference and they could grab lunch together one day. The conference was a lie This seems a totally pointless lie. Based on this story, I no longer trust this speaker. And, whatever advantage they thought they were hedging with this lie could have been achieved without it. I find the choice to lie here to indicate a kind of sociopathy - by the literal definition. Or, at least a complete lack of self-confidence.