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Despairing America: The Astonishing Psychological Cost of Lockdown – AIER

29 points by mrfusion 6y ago

jpster 6y ago
So, this is the recommendation, last sentence of the article: “If leaders really cared about people, the clearly rational and ethical thing to do would be to fully end the unsupportable government mandates. Continuing pandemic mandates is not just destroying people’s lives and livelihoods. It is killing people.” But...what shall we do about the deadly, novel airborne pathogen?
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  > Deadly, novel airborne pathogen > not from a virus with an “infection fatality rate” of 0.15-0.2% across all age groups, and 0.03 to 0.04% in those under 70 years old. (This means, 99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives.) Not if the statistics in this article are to be believed. If you don’t believe the statistics, argue about that. Otherwise your argument is baseless.
  - comicjk 6y ago
    These "statistics" are not credible. More than 0.1% of all Americans (340k) have already died of COVID-19. If the IFR were 0.15-0.2%, more than half of the population would have been infected already and the spread would be pretty much over. Instead, seroprevalence shows that about 20% of Americans have been infected, meaning we have 600k or so deaths to go in the absence of controls. As for "99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives" this is weaseling even given their low IFR estimates. It deliberately excludes those most likely to die! This doesn't look like good faith. An article about the harms of isolation doesn't have to, and shouldn't, minimize the facts in this way.
  - jpster 6y ago
    Are you saying that a novel airborne pathogen that killed 343,000 Americans this year should not be described as “deadly”?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - just-juan-post 6y ago
      Minnesota lawmakers say coronavirus deaths could be inflated by 40% after reviewing death certificates https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/coronavirus-death-certificates-minnesota-inflated https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/coronavirus-death-ce... The Grand County coroner is calling attention to the way the state health department is classifying some deaths. The coroner, Brenda Bock, says two of their five deaths related to COVID-19 were people who died of gunshot wounds. https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/12/15/grand-county-covid-deaths/ https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/12/15/grand-county-covid-de... I could post more but take a look at these.
      - jpster 6y ago
        Meanwhile, this reporting suggests that the Covid death figure is actually underreported: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronav...
        Felony_Fred 6y ago
        Meanwhile, multiple sources suggest that they are vastly inflated ; " ... That, of course, can mean anything from having had a recent positive COVID-19 test (which may or may not have been accurate) to having tested positive months earlier to simply having been declared positive based on symptoms (with hospitals facing strong financial incentives to claim COVID-19 deaths). For the sake of argument, however, let us assume that the CDC’s numbers are valid. Out of those 164,280 deaths, the CDC calculates that just six percent of them, or 9,857, were caused solely by COVID-19. “For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death,” the agency says. In other words, 94 percent of those who died with COVID-19 already had two or more other serious health issues such as hypertension or diabetes." [0] [0] ; https://thenewamerican.com/cdc-fewer-than-10-000-americans-have-died-from-covid-19-alone/ https://thenewamerican.com/cdc-fewer-than-10-000-americans-h...
- proc0 6y ago
  How about actively sanitizing areas, and only quarantining the vulnerable, while only shutting down controlled areas with evidence of the virus? Is that not safe enough for these numbers? The real question is: why is this "safe" side shoving down their "solution" down everyone else's throat? At what point does coercion becoming a solution? "DO AS I SAY OR ELSE", is really the problem here, and not the virus. People are surviving, and are building antibodies, this is not an apocalyptical virus that we have to completely shutdown and obey.
  - rualca 6y ago
    > (...) and only quarantining the vulnerable, (...) Because the epidemic spreads by infecting everyone, and the more widespread it becomes the more saturated health services will be and the more likely is that the more vulnerable elements of society will be affected. And the odds that you are infected drop radically from almost certain to highly unlikely if everyone around you just acts responsibly and just follows basic precautions such as wearing a mask, washing their hands, practice social distancing, and whenever possible practice social isolation. Think about it for a second. What do you think is the attack vector of, say, nursing homes? Do you believe it's the senior citizens who are already confind there, or everyone else who they are in contact with?
    - proc0 6y ago
      > everyone else who they are in contact with? That is not a quarantine. Quarantining the vulnerable means they don't come in contact with anyone who may be in contact with the general public. Are the options really shut everything down OR millions of people die? We're supposed to think there is high risk everywhere, while the ones who made the rules are constantly breaking them. Efforts could have gone into instant detection of the virus in an environment, and effective measures to quickly quarantine people in targeted areas, you know more creative solutions that actually don't destroy the lives who are not really at risk.
Felony_Fred 6y ago
> American people are crying out for help and dying − not from a virus with an “infection fatality rate” of 0.15-0.2% across all age groups, and 0.03 to 0.04% in those under 70 years old. (This means, 99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives.) No, the desperation and distress are in response to the government’s unprecedented mandates and lockdowns. Yup, as common sense dictates and as highlighted in the Great Barrington Declaration ; https://gbdeclaration.org/ https://gbdeclaration.org/
addicted 6y ago
Then wear masks. Americans are suffering from the costs of a deadly pandemic. Countries that have managed the pandemic have avoided a lockdown. Countries that haven't, have been forced into it either through government mandate or otherwise, because people who can afford to, will not expose themselves to risks if it means getting a disease and then dying because your hospitals are full since you've done nothing to manage the pandemic.
hedora 6y ago
The statistics cited in this are cherry picked, and therefore questionable. Fatality rates are closer to 0.5%, and the current death toll for COVID in the US is a few times higher than the numbers the article quotes. I actually think the lockdowns should have been handled in a way that was more careful to preserve education and the economy. I wish there were balanced discussions of this topic online, but I haven’t seen any. I remember when the US had an independent press, and congress had an apolitical research wing. Either of those would have saved 100,000’s this year.
perl4ever 6y ago
There's the possibility that COVID-19 directly causes mental illness, maybe even in people who are otherwise not symptomatic. I saw a thread about that recently, that I didn't want to read, but the possibility was already on my mind. Obviously you have to evaluate the number of coincidences you would expect by chance, though.
halfnormalform 6y ago
“Many people have lost everything and now face losing their country.” This is such poor writing it makes me stop and disregard the rest.
8bitsrule 6y ago
What a heap of 'sky is falling' FUD. "American Institute for Economic Research" ? == a 'non-partisan' 'free-market think tank'. Wikipedia: "AIER issued a statement in October 2020 called the "Great Barrington Declaration" that argued for a herd immunity strategy to deal with the COVID-19 pandemic.[13] It was roundly condemned by public health experts.[13][14] Anthony Fauci, the White House's top infectious disease expert, called the declaration "total nonsense" and unscientific.... AIER paid for ads on Facebook promoting its articles against government social distancing measures and mask mandates.... In 2018 it reportedly received US$68,100 from the Charles Koch Foundation" Hysteria: "a country at the breaking point." "American life has been cancelled" "desperation and distress are in response to the government’s unprecedented mandates and lockdowns. " "Growing numbers have lost the ability to cope. "

29 points by mrfusion 6y ago

So, this is the recommendation, last sentence of the article: “If leaders really cared about people, the clearly rational and ethical thing to do would be to fully end the unsupportable government mandates. Continuing pandemic mandates is not just destroying people’s lives and livelihoods. It is killing people.” But...what shall we do about the deadly, novel airborne pathogen?

tinus_hn 6y ago
> Deadly, novel airborne pathogen > not from a virus with an “infection fatality rate” of 0.15-0.2% across all age groups, and 0.03 to 0.04% in those under 70 years old. (This means, 99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives.) Not if the statistics in this article are to be believed. If you don’t believe the statistics, argue about that. Otherwise your argument is baseless.
- comicjk 6y ago
  These "statistics" are not credible. More than 0.1% of all Americans (340k) have already died of COVID-19. If the IFR were 0.15-0.2%, more than half of the population would have been infected already and the spread would be pretty much over. Instead, seroprevalence shows that about 20% of Americans have been infected, meaning we have 600k or so deaths to go in the absence of controls. As for "99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives" this is weaseling even given their low IFR estimates. It deliberately excludes those most likely to die! This doesn't look like good faith. An article about the harms of isolation doesn't have to, and shouldn't, minimize the facts in this way.
- jpster 6y ago
  Are you saying that a novel airborne pathogen that killed 343,000 Americans this year should not be described as “deadly”?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - just-juan-post 6y ago
    Minnesota lawmakers say coronavirus deaths could be inflated by 40% after reviewing death certificates https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/coronavirus-death-certificates-minnesota-inflated https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/coronavirus-death-ce... The Grand County coroner is calling attention to the way the state health department is classifying some deaths. The coroner, Brenda Bock, says two of their five deaths related to COVID-19 were people who died of gunshot wounds. https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/12/15/grand-county-covid-deaths/ https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/12/15/grand-county-covid-de... I could post more but take a look at these.
    - jpster 6y ago
      Meanwhile, this reporting suggests that the Covid death figure is actually underreported: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronav...
      - Felony_Fred 6y ago
        Meanwhile, multiple sources suggest that they are vastly inflated ; " ... That, of course, can mean anything from having had a recent positive COVID-19 test (which may or may not have been accurate) to having tested positive months earlier to simply having been declared positive based on symptoms (with hospitals facing strong financial incentives to claim COVID-19 deaths). For the sake of argument, however, let us assume that the CDC’s numbers are valid. Out of those 164,280 deaths, the CDC calculates that just six percent of them, or 9,857, were caused solely by COVID-19. “For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death,” the agency says. In other words, 94 percent of those who died with COVID-19 already had two or more other serious health issues such as hypertension or diabetes." [0] [0] ; https://thenewamerican.com/cdc-fewer-than-10-000-americans-have-died-from-covid-19-alone/ https://thenewamerican.com/cdc-fewer-than-10-000-americans-h...
proc0 6y ago
How about actively sanitizing areas, and only quarantining the vulnerable, while only shutting down controlled areas with evidence of the virus? Is that not safe enough for these numbers? The real question is: why is this "safe" side shoving down their "solution" down everyone else's throat? At what point does coercion becoming a solution? "DO AS I SAY OR ELSE", is really the problem here, and not the virus. People are surviving, and are building antibodies, this is not an apocalyptical virus that we have to completely shutdown and obey.
- rualca 6y ago
  > (...) and only quarantining the vulnerable, (...) Because the epidemic spreads by infecting everyone, and the more widespread it becomes the more saturated health services will be and the more likely is that the more vulnerable elements of society will be affected. And the odds that you are infected drop radically from almost certain to highly unlikely if everyone around you just acts responsibly and just follows basic precautions such as wearing a mask, washing their hands, practice social distancing, and whenever possible practice social isolation. Think about it for a second. What do you think is the attack vector of, say, nursing homes? Do you believe it's the senior citizens who are already confind there, or everyone else who they are in contact with?
  - proc0 6y ago
    > everyone else who they are in contact with? That is not a quarantine. Quarantining the vulnerable means they don't come in contact with anyone who may be in contact with the general public. Are the options really shut everything down OR millions of people die? We're supposed to think there is high risk everywhere, while the ones who made the rules are constantly breaking them. Efforts could have gone into instant detection of the virus in an environment, and effective measures to quickly quarantine people in targeted areas, you know more creative solutions that actually don't destroy the lives who are not really at risk.

Felony_Fred 6y ago

> American people are crying out for help and dying − not from a virus with an “infection fatality rate” of 0.15-0.2% across all age groups, and 0.03 to 0.04% in those under 70 years old. (This means, 99.96% of nearly everyone who gets the virus lives.) No, the desperation and distress are in response to the government’s unprecedented mandates and lockdowns. Yup, as common sense dictates and as highlighted in the Great Barrington Declaration ; https://gbdeclaration.org/ https://gbdeclaration.org/

addicted 6y ago

Then wear masks. Americans are suffering from the costs of a deadly pandemic. Countries that have managed the pandemic have avoided a lockdown. Countries that haven't, have been forced into it either through government mandate or otherwise, because people who can afford to, will not expose themselves to risks if it means getting a disease and then dying because your hospitals are full since you've done nothing to manage the pandemic.

hedora 6y ago

The statistics cited in this are cherry picked, and therefore questionable. Fatality rates are closer to 0.5%, and the current death toll for COVID in the US is a few times higher than the numbers the article quotes. I actually think the lockdowns should have been handled in a way that was more careful to preserve education and the economy. I wish there were balanced discussions of this topic online, but I haven’t seen any. I remember when the US had an independent press, and congress had an apolitical research wing. Either of those would have saved 100,000’s this year.

perl4ever 6y ago

There's the possibility that COVID-19 directly causes mental illness, maybe even in people who are otherwise not symptomatic. I saw a thread about that recently, that I didn't want to read, but the possibility was already on my mind. Obviously you have to evaluate the number of coincidences you would expect by chance, though.

halfnormalform 6y ago

“Many people have lost everything and now face losing their country.” This is such poor writing it makes me stop and disregard the rest.

8bitsrule 6y ago

What a heap of 'sky is falling' FUD. "American Institute for Economic Research" ? == a 'non-partisan' 'free-market think tank'. Wikipedia: "AIER issued a statement in October 2020 called the "Great Barrington Declaration" that argued for a herd immunity strategy to deal with the COVID-19 pandemic.[13] It was roundly condemned by public health experts.[13][14] Anthony Fauci, the White House's top infectious disease expert, called the declaration "total nonsense" and unscientific.... AIER paid for ads on Facebook promoting its articles against government social distancing measures and mask mandates.... In 2018 it reportedly received US$68,100 from the Charles Koch Foundation" Hysteria: "a country at the breaking point." "American life has been cancelled" "desperation and distress are in response to the government’s unprecedented mandates and lockdowns. " "Growing numbers have lost the ability to cope. "