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Shame can only be seen as useful by someone completely preoccupied with it. If you become free of shame, you realise that there are other "filters" and motivato

by dmos62 6y ago

Shame can only be seen as useful by someone completely preoccupied with it. If you become free of shame, you realise that there are other "filters" and motivators of your behaviour. Fear, desire, pride, caring, courage, creativity, love. All these emotions shape our participation in society. If someone thinks that some single emotion is human's only motivator, that's just a projection of him being stuck in that emotion.

mrmonkeyman 6y ago
1. There is a hierarchy. 2. The parent never mentioned or even implied it being the only one. I'd look deeper into that projection-theory of yours.
neogodless 6y ago
> Shame can only be seen as useful by someone completely preoccupied with it. I don't think that's accurate at all! You can easily realize there are other filters and motivators while also recognizing the usefulness of shame. They are variables, and you can apply them in different measures depending on the needs of a scenario. As you said "all these emotions shape our participation in society." I also don't believe the parent comment said "some single emotion is human's only motivator." What they said was that it was working as the last or final limitation of behaviors for a large portion of (implied: American) people and that it was removed by high profile person acting without shame. Without it, obviously they are motivated by fear (of The Other), desire (to feel superior and unfettered), pride (of being in the superior group, whether it be political party, race, gender, religion, etc.), caring (in this case, only for their own but not other humans) and so forth. These emotions can be applied in small and large amounts, and for good or evil, depending on your perspective. Are you a patriot because you believe your country is a force for good, or because you believe being a part of it entitles you to the highest standard of living in the world?
zajio1am 6y ago
While it is true that many people are preoccupied with shame, it seems to me that shaming is primarily an external, relations-based action (attack on shamee's social standing) more than internal, the psychological effect (inducing shame emotion in shamee) is secondary. That is different to say guilt-tripping, where psychological effect is the primary action. And social standing is something that is useful to some degree even to people not preoccupied with that. Like money is useful even to people not preoccupied with wealth. Fortunately, in modern society with formalized relations other measures of social standing (like wealth) can substitute the one that is attacked by shaming.
- papito 6y ago
  "Shame" is the feeling of "but what will other people think about me? Am I being judged", not the fear of someone shaming you verbally. That actually rarely happens, as that risks real physical escalation. Online, verbally shaming people happens a lot more often as it's safer for the shamer, but you need to have essentially the same amount of shamelessness as in the "real world" to not care. In fact, shaming online can be more powerful because those people KNOW who you are. Do you think Jeffrey Toobin would feel more shame if he was caught rubbing one out with his windows open as just some guy in his apartment and his neighbors seeing him, or on Zoom with his colleagues?

by dmos62 6y ago

mrmonkeyman 6y ago

1. There is a hierarchy. 2. The parent never mentioned or even implied it being the only one. I'd look deeper into that projection-theory of yours.

neogodless 6y ago

> Shame can only be seen as useful by someone completely preoccupied with it. I don't think that's accurate at all! You can easily realize there are other filters and motivators while also recognizing the usefulness of shame. They are variables, and you can apply them in different measures depending on the needs of a scenario. As you said "all these emotions shape our participation in society." I also don't believe the parent comment said "some single emotion is human's only motivator." What they said was that it was working as the last or final limitation of behaviors for a large portion of (implied: American) people and that it was removed by high profile person acting without shame. Without it, obviously they are motivated by fear (of The Other), desire (to feel superior and unfettered), pride (of being in the superior group, whether it be political party, race, gender, religion, etc.), caring (in this case, only for their own but not other humans) and so forth. These emotions can be applied in small and large amounts, and for good or evil, depending on your perspective. Are you a patriot because you believe your country is a force for good, or because you believe being a part of it entitles you to the highest standard of living in the world?

zajio1am 6y ago

While it is true that many people are preoccupied with shame, it seems to me that shaming is primarily an external, relations-based action (attack on shamee's social standing) more than internal, the psychological effect (inducing shame emotion in shamee) is secondary. That is different to say guilt-tripping, where psychological effect is the primary action. And social standing is something that is useful to some degree even to people not preoccupied with that. Like money is useful even to people not preoccupied with wealth. Fortunately, in modern society with formalized relations other measures of social standing (like wealth) can substitute the one that is attacked by shaming.

papito 6y ago
"Shame" is the feeling of "but what will other people think about me? Am I being judged", not the fear of someone shaming you verbally. That actually rarely happens, as that risks real physical escalation. Online, verbally shaming people happens a lot more often as it's safer for the shamer, but you need to have essentially the same amount of shamelessness as in the "real world" to not care. In fact, shaming online can be more powerful because those people KNOW who you are. Do you think Jeffrey Toobin would feel more shame if he was caught rubbing one out with his windows open as just some guy in his apartment and his neighbors seeing him, or on Zoom with his colleagues?