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For what it's worth, I think Apple sent the Homebrew devs ARM Mac Minis for building and when the Homebrew devs asked for more, they sent more. So they're doing

by Hamuko 6y ago

For what it's worth, I think Apple sent the Homebrew devs ARM Mac Minis for building and when the Homebrew devs asked for more, they sent more. So they're doing something, even if they're not doing as much as one would hope.

smspf 6y ago
To be honest, I don't blame Apple for this. I blame the ARM ecosystem which is very fragmented, each company working with ARM is contributing to the stuff they are interested in and that's it. Lots of contractors and always shuffling/changing projects they work on.
- oblio 6y ago
  Isn't Apple doing the exact same thing with their proprietary ARM ISA extensions?
  - my123 6y ago
    Their ISA extension is an ML-specific one, and macOS runs fine with it disabled. Their public compilers do not support it either. You are supposed to use it through Accelerate.framework, which exposes a more traditional interface to that capability.
    - skissane 6y ago
      > Their ISA extension is an ML-specific one Apple Silicon has more than one ISA extension. There is also the x86 memory ordering extension used by Rosetta 2. Maybe there are yet others too.
      - my123 6y ago
        > There is also the x86 memory ordering extension used by Rosetta 2. That one isn't really a requirement either, and is handled fully in kernel mode. Wkdm and friends are handled fully in kernel mode. APRR? Not a strict requirement for user-mode, JIT regions are just left as RWX without it.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        Apple enforces APRR on macOS; you need to use their APIs to work within the confines of W^X.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        There are more but they are not exposed to applications. Apple wants you to ship standard arm64 code.
simonh 6y ago
They also submitted some patches to MacPorts, and I think Homebrew though I couldn't find a reference offhand. So i suppose it's always possible to argue they could do more, but code and hardware is a long way from nothing.
darksaints 6y ago
Not doing as much as one would hope is a massive understatement. Apple has banked their future on this architecture, and they have $200 Billion with a B in cash laying around doing absolutely nothing. Sending a few thousand dollars worth of hardware to your largest open source software distributor barely breaks into the territory of self-interest. On the scale of self-destructive to self-interested, it rates somewhere in the realm of wiping your ass after taking a shit.

by Hamuko 6y ago

smspf 6y ago

To be honest, I don't blame Apple for this. I blame the ARM ecosystem which is very fragmented, each company working with ARM is contributing to the stuff they are interested in and that's it. Lots of contractors and always shuffling/changing projects they work on.

oblio 6y ago
Isn't Apple doing the exact same thing with their proprietary ARM ISA extensions?
- my123 6y ago
  Their ISA extension is an ML-specific one, and macOS runs fine with it disabled. Their public compilers do not support it either. You are supposed to use it through Accelerate.framework, which exposes a more traditional interface to that capability.
  - skissane 6y ago
    > Their ISA extension is an ML-specific one Apple Silicon has more than one ISA extension. There is also the x86 memory ordering extension used by Rosetta 2. Maybe there are yet others too.
    - my123 6y ago
      > There is also the x86 memory ordering extension used by Rosetta 2. That one isn't really a requirement either, and is handled fully in kernel mode. Wkdm and friends are handled fully in kernel mode. APRR? Not a strict requirement for user-mode, JIT regions are just left as RWX without it.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        Apple enforces APRR on macOS; you need to use their APIs to work within the confines of W^X.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      There are more but they are not exposed to applications. Apple wants you to ship standard arm64 code.

simonh 6y ago

They also submitted some patches to MacPorts, and I think Homebrew though I couldn't find a reference offhand. So i suppose it's always possible to argue they could do more, but code and hardware is a long way from nothing.

darksaints 6y ago

Not doing as much as one would hope is a massive understatement. Apple has banked their future on this architecture, and they have $200 Billion with a B in cash laying around doing absolutely nothing. Sending a few thousand dollars worth of hardware to your largest open source software distributor barely breaks into the territory of self-interest. On the scale of self-destructive to self-interested, it rates somewhere in the realm of wiping your ass after taking a shit.