5 ms·

Shame - is good. It's the glue of civilization. There are MANY things that are legal that we can do, but we will not, as we will feel ashamed of it. It seems t

by papito 6y ago

Shame - is good. It's the glue of civilization. There are MANY things that are legal that we can do, but we will not, as we will feel ashamed of it. It seems to me that about half of the general population is constrained by the "sanctions" of shame exclusively, but given the green light by a high profile example of, oh say, the President, will gladly act like horrible human beings, which is their original nature. Not only will they not feel shame, they may even be proud of being horrible. If anything, the last four years have taught me a lot about humanity, and how fragile our contract with society is.

pjc50 6y ago
A corollary of this is that the individual who becomes shameless becomes free - they can do whatever they want that they don't get physically stopped from doing. Individual liberation at the expense of other people, very Prisoner's Dilemma.
- qznc 6y ago
  > I’m also short, bald, and near-sighted. People try shaming me for that stuff on a regular basis. But it doesn’t work because I lost all sense of shame some time ago. In my world view, shame is nothing but a filter some people put on their own observations. –Scott Adams https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/04/01/shame-shaming/ https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/04/01/shame-shaming/ > Trump admitted he was wrong to tweet about Cruz’ wife. This is the first time we have seen him admit wrong. Trump’s opponents are afraid (in the third dimension) that he can’t be shamed into acting appropriately. He just showed that he can. –Scott Adams https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/04/04/derailing-the-trump-train/ https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/04/04/derailing-the-trum...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - loopz 6y ago
    Except everything stated is pure conjecture, and do not reflect the true demonic nature of the man. Trump is now predictably planning and working for overturning the election, then to coup either state or party level (think: cleansing of heathens) and then to establish dictatorship. Not seeing this is being blindsided of how corrupt the wrong person can be.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  That sounds like just another way of describing a sociopath.
  - loopz 6y ago
    Even for altruism?
dmos62 6y ago
Shame can only be seen as useful by someone completely preoccupied with it. If you become free of shame, you realise that there are other "filters" and motivators of your behaviour. Fear, desire, pride, caring, courage, creativity, love. All these emotions shape our participation in society. If someone thinks that some single emotion is human's only motivator, that's just a projection of him being stuck in that emotion.
- mrmonkeyman 6y ago
  1. There is a hierarchy. 2. The parent never mentioned or even implied it being the only one. I'd look deeper into that projection-theory of yours.
- neogodless 6y ago
  > Shame can only be seen as useful by someone completely preoccupied with it. I don't think that's accurate at all! You can easily realize there are other filters and motivators while also recognizing the usefulness of shame. They are variables, and you can apply them in different measures depending on the needs of a scenario. As you said "all these emotions shape our participation in society." I also don't believe the parent comment said "some single emotion is human's only motivator." What they said was that it was working as the last or final limitation of behaviors for a large portion of (implied: American) people and that it was removed by high profile person acting without shame. Without it, obviously they are motivated by fear (of The Other), desire (to feel superior and unfettered), pride (of being in the superior group, whether it be political party, race, gender, religion, etc.), caring (in this case, only for their own but not other humans) and so forth. These emotions can be applied in small and large amounts, and for good or evil, depending on your perspective. Are you a patriot because you believe your country is a force for good, or because you believe being a part of it entitles you to the highest standard of living in the world?
- zajio1am 6y ago
  While it is true that many people are preoccupied with shame, it seems to me that shaming is primarily an external, relations-based action (attack on shamee's social standing) more than internal, the psychological effect (inducing shame emotion in shamee) is secondary. That is different to say guilt-tripping, where psychological effect is the primary action. And social standing is something that is useful to some degree even to people not preoccupied with that. Like money is useful even to people not preoccupied with wealth. Fortunately, in modern society with formalized relations other measures of social standing (like wealth) can substitute the one that is attacked by shaming.
qznc 6y ago
Shame is only partially good. Most people feel shame if they take advantage of someone else which is good and keeps your society together. Some people feel shame if they get abused which is bad because the abuser can continue. I wonder what the debate of nature vs nurture is with respect to shame? I cannot think up any example for inborn shame. Maybe murder? When a human intentionally kills another one there is usually a mental switch to not consider the other as a human anymore.
lowercased 6y ago
Seeing a few comments below, I'm seeing reactions to perhaps two different 'shames'. It feels like we may have shame for some aspect of ourselves or our inherent condition (someone wrote about people 'shaming' him for being bald??), but there's also shame for your actions. Experiencing shame for some aspect of your existence or something beyond your control (appearance, etc) seems a bit odd, but obviously has an impact on people. Experiencing shame for your actions - these are generally under your control, and seems more reasonable.
kempbellt 6y ago
> Shame - is good Gotta shamelessly disagree with you on this one. Shame serves only to erode morale and damages society more as a whole. It turns the world into nothing more than a petty blame-game whereby everything comes to a halt because everyone's too busy living in "aww" of other peoples' behavior to keep society chugging along - hello 2020...? Shaming is the opposite of productive or effective energy. It's just a petty way to try and control others. Agree with someone, disagree, don't have an opinion, who cares. But shaming them....egh. Feels like a waste of energy to me.
- papito 6y ago
  There is a point at which shame become detrimental to a person, but in general, this is absolutely not true. I feel obstructive amounts of shame, but I fought that and asked for a lower rent on my lease, and I got it. But I am not going to cut in line at the grocery store even though, according to you, my feeling shame in that case is just stopping me from doing what I want.
  - kempbellt 6y ago
    > absolutely not true Only the Sith deal in absolutes. > I feel obstructive amounts of shame, but I fought that and asked for a lower rent on my lease, and I got it. Genuinely: congrats. Self-advocation is extremely rewarding, and something that I personally love to see in others. > But I am not going to cut in line at the grocery store even though, according to you, my feeling shame in that case is just stopping me from doing what I want. If someone has a genuine need to cut in line and demonstrates that to the people they are cutting in line, I don't see any issue here. I would take no issue being cut in line, in this situation and just think, "They've got somewhere important to be". But still, if they did it dickishly, I wouldn't shame them. I might confront them, or just...cut back. But for me to shame them, is such a drain of my energy... And whether they feel shame for an action on their own, is beyond what I care to spend my time thinking about. I'm not their mom.
    - papito 6y ago
      We are not even talking about shaming people. This is not the discussion at ALL. We are discussing people's inability to feel shame.
notsureaboutpg 6y ago
Yep, people arguing against this in the replies don't realize the author of the article has made the same point. The author's point that shamelessness has increased over the past few years is based on the fact that our communities and civilizations have become less glued together and more fluid. When there's less glue between members of a society they can be more shameless. Shame IS the glue of a society.

by papito 6y ago

pjc50 6y ago

A corollary of this is that the individual who becomes shameless becomes free - they can do whatever they want that they don't get physically stopped from doing. Individual liberation at the expense of other people, very Prisoner's Dilemma.

qznc 6y ago
> I’m also short, bald, and near-sighted. People try shaming me for that stuff on a regular basis. But it doesn’t work because I lost all sense of shame some time ago. In my world view, shame is nothing but a filter some people put on their own observations. –Scott Adams https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/04/01/shame-shaming/ https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/04/01/shame-shaming/ > Trump admitted he was wrong to tweet about Cruz’ wife. This is the first time we have seen him admit wrong. Trump’s opponents are afraid (in the third dimension) that he can’t be shamed into acting appropriately. He just showed that he can. –Scott Adams https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/04/04/derailing-the-trump-train/ https://www.scottadamssays.com/2016/04/04/derailing-the-trum...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- loopz 6y ago
  Except everything stated is pure conjecture, and do not reflect the true demonic nature of the man. Trump is now predictably planning and working for overturning the election, then to coup either state or party level (think: cleansing of heathens) and then to establish dictatorship. Not seeing this is being blindsided of how corrupt the wrong person can be.
rootusrootus 6y ago
That sounds like just another way of describing a sociopath.
- loopz 6y ago
  Even for altruism?

dmos62 6y ago

Shame can only be seen as useful by someone completely preoccupied with it. If you become free of shame, you realise that there are other "filters" and motivators of your behaviour. Fear, desire, pride, caring, courage, creativity, love. All these emotions shape our participation in society. If someone thinks that some single emotion is human's only motivator, that's just a projection of him being stuck in that emotion.

mrmonkeyman 6y ago
1. There is a hierarchy. 2. The parent never mentioned or even implied it being the only one. I'd look deeper into that projection-theory of yours.
neogodless 6y ago
> Shame can only be seen as useful by someone completely preoccupied with it. I don't think that's accurate at all! You can easily realize there are other filters and motivators while also recognizing the usefulness of shame. They are variables, and you can apply them in different measures depending on the needs of a scenario. As you said "all these emotions shape our participation in society." I also don't believe the parent comment said "some single emotion is human's only motivator." What they said was that it was working as the last or final limitation of behaviors for a large portion of (implied: American) people and that it was removed by high profile person acting without shame. Without it, obviously they are motivated by fear (of The Other), desire (to feel superior and unfettered), pride (of being in the superior group, whether it be political party, race, gender, religion, etc.), caring (in this case, only for their own but not other humans) and so forth. These emotions can be applied in small and large amounts, and for good or evil, depending on your perspective. Are you a patriot because you believe your country is a force for good, or because you believe being a part of it entitles you to the highest standard of living in the world?
zajio1am 6y ago
While it is true that many people are preoccupied with shame, it seems to me that shaming is primarily an external, relations-based action (attack on shamee's social standing) more than internal, the psychological effect (inducing shame emotion in shamee) is secondary. That is different to say guilt-tripping, where psychological effect is the primary action. And social standing is something that is useful to some degree even to people not preoccupied with that. Like money is useful even to people not preoccupied with wealth. Fortunately, in modern society with formalized relations other measures of social standing (like wealth) can substitute the one that is attacked by shaming.

qznc 6y ago

Shame is only partially good. Most people feel shame if they take advantage of someone else which is good and keeps your society together. Some people feel shame if they get abused which is bad because the abuser can continue. I wonder what the debate of nature vs nurture is with respect to shame? I cannot think up any example for inborn shame. Maybe murder? When a human intentionally kills another one there is usually a mental switch to not consider the other as a human anymore.

lowercased 6y ago

Seeing a few comments below, I'm seeing reactions to perhaps two different 'shames'. It feels like we may have shame for some aspect of ourselves or our inherent condition (someone wrote about people 'shaming' him for being bald??), but there's also shame for your actions. Experiencing shame for some aspect of your existence or something beyond your control (appearance, etc) seems a bit odd, but obviously has an impact on people. Experiencing shame for your actions - these are generally under your control, and seems more reasonable.

kempbellt 6y ago

> Shame - is good Gotta shamelessly disagree with you on this one. Shame serves only to erode morale and damages society more as a whole. It turns the world into nothing more than a petty blame-game whereby everything comes to a halt because everyone's too busy living in "aww" of other peoples' behavior to keep society chugging along - hello 2020...? Shaming is the opposite of productive or effective energy. It's just a petty way to try and control others. Agree with someone, disagree, don't have an opinion, who cares. But shaming them....egh. Feels like a waste of energy to me.

papito 6y ago
There is a point at which shame become detrimental to a person, but in general, this is absolutely not true. I feel obstructive amounts of shame, but I fought that and asked for a lower rent on my lease, and I got it. But I am not going to cut in line at the grocery store even though, according to you, my feeling shame in that case is just stopping me from doing what I want.
- kempbellt 6y ago
  > absolutely not true Only the Sith deal in absolutes. > I feel obstructive amounts of shame, but I fought that and asked for a lower rent on my lease, and I got it. Genuinely: congrats. Self-advocation is extremely rewarding, and something that I personally love to see in others. > But I am not going to cut in line at the grocery store even though, according to you, my feeling shame in that case is just stopping me from doing what I want. If someone has a genuine need to cut in line and demonstrates that to the people they are cutting in line, I don't see any issue here. I would take no issue being cut in line, in this situation and just think, "They've got somewhere important to be". But still, if they did it dickishly, I wouldn't shame them. I might confront them, or just...cut back. But for me to shame them, is such a drain of my energy... And whether they feel shame for an action on their own, is beyond what I care to spend my time thinking about. I'm not their mom.
  - papito 6y ago
    We are not even talking about shaming people. This is not the discussion at ALL. We are discussing people's inability to feel shame.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago

Yep, people arguing against this in the replies don't realize the author of the article has made the same point. The author's point that shamelessness has increased over the past few years is based on the fact that our communities and civilizations have become less glued together and more fluid. When there's less glue between members of a society they can be more shameless. Shame IS the glue of a society.