4 ms·

Of course there are factories, most developed trade schools anywhere have a path to production. There is however no proof of coercion provided, yet again.

by lucian1900 6y ago

yorwba 6y ago
Regarding coercion, we can again ask Xinhua: http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-03/18/c_1124247196.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-03/18/c_1124247196.ht... 入教培中心的学员有三方面人员：一是被教唆、胁迫、引诱参与恐怖活动、极端主义活动，或者参与恐怖活动、极端主义活动情节轻微，尚不构成犯罪的人员。二是被教唆、胁迫、引诱参与恐怖活动、极端主义活动，或者参与恐怖活动、极端主义活动，有现实危险性，尚未造成实际危害后果，主观恶性不深，能够认罪悔过，依法可以免除刑罚，自愿接受培训的人员。三是因暴力恐怖、极端主义犯罪被定罪处刑，刑满释放前经评估仍有社会危险性，人民法院依法决定在刑满释放后进行安置教育的人员。 There are three kinds of people sent to education centers: The first are those who have been instigated, forced or lured to participate or who did participate in terrorist or extremist activities, of such slight degree that it does not yet constitute a crime. The second are those who have been instigated, forced or lured to participate or who did participate in terrorist or extremist activities, posing a realistic danger, but not yet causing actual damage, subjectively not deeply evil, pleading guilty and repenting; who, according to law, can be exempted from punishment if they agree to undergo training. The third are those who have been convicted and sentenced for violent terrorism or extremist offenses and who, before their release from prison, are judged to still pose a danger to society, such that a People's Court decides according to law that they should be placed in education. Which of those three groups is not being coerced?
- lucian1900 6y ago
  You’re talking about specifically the subset of trade schools that are part of the justice system, helping people gain skills so they can be later gainfully employed and not need to turn to crime. Is having a justice system considered nefarious coercion in any country? The problem is the conflation with the majority of trade school attendees in Xinjiang, of which there is no evidence they are anything other than voluntary. All countries that care about their workers material conditions offer trade schools with a path to employment.
  - yorwba 6y ago
    > Is having a justice system considered nefarious coercion in any country? The whole point of a justice system is coercion. It is usually considered non-nefarious to reward people for working and to withhold that reward when they do not work; while it is considered nefarious to force people to work and to punish them if they do not work. Simply put, not working should not be a crime. > The problem is the conflation with the majority of trade school attendees in Xinjiang Is there a conflation? It's rather immaterial how the majority is doing when the issue is the treatment of minorities. In any case, I'm curious whether you could point me to any statistics about trade school attendees in Xinjiang.
    - lucian1900 6y ago
      Uyghurs are about half of the population of Xinjiang, they aren't a minority there. So we know that likely around a few thousand terrorists from Xinjiang [1] radicalised by Saudi Wahhabists [2] went to Syria to fight alongside ISIS. It's also very likely the US helped fund them (just like with the Mujahideen in Afganistan), the NED pretty much admitted as much [3]. We later found out more about the terrorist campaign within Xinjiang itself [4]. The justice system's response to this small number of people included, among other things, attempts at rehabilitation for them and an intensification of the anti-poverty efforts in the region. Then, anti-Chinese groups (often using Adrian Zenz as a source) attempt to conflate the treatment of a few criminals with the experience of the vast majority of Uyghurs in Xinjiang. That is where the problem lies with using satellite pictures which could be of anything: just because some prisons exist in a region doesn't mean everything there is a prison. 1. https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/185086/299_Lin.pdf https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/185086/299_Lin.pdf 2. https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-02-10/The-irony-of-the-U-S-s-Xinjiang-campaign--NWBJmIZPj2/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-02-10/The-irony-of-the-U-S-s... 3. https://www.ned.org/uyghur-human-rights-policy-act-builds-on-work-of-ned-grantees/ https://www.ned.org/uyghur-human-rights-policy-act-builds-on... 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4cYE6E27_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4cYE6E27_g

Of course there are factories, most developed trade schools anywhere have a path to production. There is however no proof of coercion provided, yet again.

yorwba 6y ago

Regarding coercion, we can again ask Xinhua: http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-03/18/c_1124247196.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-03/18/c_1124247196.ht... 入教培中心的学员有三方面人员：一是被教唆、胁迫、引诱参与恐怖活动、极端主义活动，或者参与恐怖活动、极端主义活动情节轻微，尚不构成犯罪的人员。二是被教唆、胁迫、引诱参与恐怖活动、极端主义活动，或者参与恐怖活动、极端主义活动，有现实危险性，尚未造成实际危害后果，主观恶性不深，能够认罪悔过，依法可以免除刑罚，自愿接受培训的人员。三是因暴力恐怖、极端主义犯罪被定罪处刑，刑满释放前经评估仍有社会危险性，人民法院依法决定在刑满释放后进行安置教育的人员。 There are three kinds of people sent to education centers: The first are those who have been instigated, forced or lured to participate or who did participate in terrorist or extremist activities, of such slight degree that it does not yet constitute a crime. The second are those who have been instigated, forced or lured to participate or who did participate in terrorist or extremist activities, posing a realistic danger, but not yet causing actual damage, subjectively not deeply evil, pleading guilty and repenting; who, according to law, can be exempted from punishment if they agree to undergo training. The third are those who have been convicted and sentenced for violent terrorism or extremist offenses and who, before their release from prison, are judged to still pose a danger to society, such that a People's Court decides according to law that they should be placed in education. Which of those three groups is not being coerced?

lucian1900 6y ago
You’re talking about specifically the subset of trade schools that are part of the justice system, helping people gain skills so they can be later gainfully employed and not need to turn to crime. Is having a justice system considered nefarious coercion in any country? The problem is the conflation with the majority of trade school attendees in Xinjiang, of which there is no evidence they are anything other than voluntary. All countries that care about their workers material conditions offer trade schools with a path to employment.
- yorwba 6y ago
  > Is having a justice system considered nefarious coercion in any country? The whole point of a justice system is coercion. It is usually considered non-nefarious to reward people for working and to withhold that reward when they do not work; while it is considered nefarious to force people to work and to punish them if they do not work. Simply put, not working should not be a crime. > The problem is the conflation with the majority of trade school attendees in Xinjiang Is there a conflation? It's rather immaterial how the majority is doing when the issue is the treatment of minorities. In any case, I'm curious whether you could point me to any statistics about trade school attendees in Xinjiang.
  - lucian1900 6y ago
    Uyghurs are about half of the population of Xinjiang, they aren't a minority there. So we know that likely around a few thousand terrorists from Xinjiang [1] radicalised by Saudi Wahhabists [2] went to Syria to fight alongside ISIS. It's also very likely the US helped fund them (just like with the Mujahideen in Afganistan), the NED pretty much admitted as much [3]. We later found out more about the terrorist campaign within Xinjiang itself [4]. The justice system's response to this small number of people included, among other things, attempts at rehabilitation for them and an intensification of the anti-poverty efforts in the region. Then, anti-Chinese groups (often using Adrian Zenz as a source) attempt to conflate the treatment of a few criminals with the experience of the vast majority of Uyghurs in Xinjiang. That is where the problem lies with using satellite pictures which could be of anything: just because some prisons exist in a region doesn't mean everything there is a prison. 1. https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/185086/299_Lin.pdf https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/185086/299_Lin.pdf 2. https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-02-10/The-irony-of-the-U-S-s-Xinjiang-campaign--NWBJmIZPj2/index.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-02-10/The-irony-of-the-U-S-s... 3. https://www.ned.org/uyghur-human-rights-policy-act-builds-on-work-of-ned-grantees/ https://www.ned.org/uyghur-human-rights-policy-act-builds-on... 4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4cYE6E27_g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4cYE6E27_g