5 ms·

PWAs are actually kind of user hostile. They only benefit developers who don’t want to implement an extra app in a native/App Store language/env. In theory the

PWAs are actually kind of user hostile. They only benefit developers who don’t want to implement an extra app in a native/App Store language/env. In theory they could be great but apple/google make too much money off app stores.

Fragoel2 6y ago
Maintaining 2 different apps (a native one and a web one) is costly in terms of time/resources. The point its not that developers "don't want" to make both, is that many don't have the resources to make both.
- albertgoeswoof 6y ago
  Right but how does that help users? If you don’t have the resources to build the right interfaces for them, then the business model isn’t working. Telling your customers to install a pwa is a terrible user experience and borderline rude
  - The_Colonel 6y ago
    Not everyone is building a next Instagram for hundreds of millions users. There's a long tail of smaller business niches which might sustain a solo developer / small company and there having one codebase is obviously critical.
  - _ink_ 6y ago
    Rude is telling developers their business model is not good, because they cannot affort to build native apps for Windows, Mac, Gnome, Kde, Android, iOS and web. If you cannot work with PWAs maybe you just aren't in the targeted user group.
  - doteka 6y ago
    Hard disagree for the long tail of apps. My company’s payroll admin system uses a PWA as a mobile interface. I don’t need slick ui there, I need to view my payslips (click a link to open a pdf) and request time off (fill in a 4-field form). It’s perfectly fine for this usecase and there is no conceivable business value in pouring more resources into it. News flash: a majority of applications is simple CRUD like this. They don’t need a native UI or performance. They just need an icon on your homescreen.
  - twobitshifter 6y ago
    Actually I find that the user experience on PWAs and Electron apps is better than that on native desktop apps. Developers have always been challenged in building desktop apps because the available toolkits are generally crusty, limited, and complex. GTK, TK, QT, Windows Forms, don’t compare well against what can be done in the DOM.
  - postalrat 6y ago
    Nobody is telling users to install a PWA. Just because a site has all the features to be considered a PWA doesn't mean your user must use them. But they are telling users to install apps. Sites that depend on advertising want to force the app down your throat to eliminate ad blockers and to better track you.
- jefftougas 6y ago
  The core problem with PWAs is that ultimately the success of the overall idea is held hostage by the level of consensus across the browser development teams. Whilst they "collaborate" on "common" web standards (they being many, btw), iOS and Android (note: only 2) have very well defined apis for how to create awesome native UX. The problem of creating a unifying native abstraction (like react native or flutter) that is actually effective from the User's POV, is far more attainable, than that of trying to create a consistently awesome PWA with such inconsistent browser support, across a far greater multitude of platforms than the iOS / Android bifurcation in native-land. My $.02. PWAs have always seemed like one of those beautifully idealistic yet totally doomed to fail ideas (at least for several years relative to native-based-approaches). Don't get me wrong, I think the web will ultimately evolve into the new JVM (read: via WASM), and the beatific promise that was foretold by PWA will finally reach the masses. Reality Check: We're not quite there yet. Firefox deleting a legacy, buggy, and dev-time-sink attempt at this, makes total sense to me so they can focus on the other awesome stuff they're doing that actually creates real value for the masses today. To be fair - perhaps they could've handled the ticket on this a bit more gracefully...? But then again - they know their stuff, so I don't blame them entirely :)
Barrin92 6y ago
I think you have it the wrong way around. The app stores are user hostile. Building applications on the web rather than locking them down on platforms is a really good idea. And if anything developers should move towards them to break the store dominance whenever possible.
- bzb6 6y ago
  It’s been very long since they promised us that web apps that use systems such as Cordova would work as well as native apps. That hasn’t happened yet, and will never happen I guess.
- tpxl 6y ago
  Web apps have a tendency to disappear andor change without the users wants or needs. I agree app stores are user hostile, but so are web apps.
  - radicalbyte 6y ago
    So do native apps, especially on iOS! It seems like every time I go back to using an iPad that I need to find replacements for a good number of apps.
  - tehbeard 6y ago
    I've had a perfectly good MP3 player on my phone get deleted because Google can't be arsed to leave it alone, they want to force me to a subscription based app to play songs when it's in my pocket! That thing is 100% native code, don't act like web apps are the only thing to do this. You can be a bad actor regardless of the tech stack.
- bluescrn 6y ago
  Modern phones have very capable web browsers. But try to use them, and you get dumbed-down ‘mobile sites’ with massive ‘use the app instead!’ nags. The web on a mobile device is an unnecessarily lousy experience.
VoxPelli 6y ago
You do know that one can publish PWA:s to Google Play Store by using TWA:s + that Google are experimenting with allowing plain PWA:s there + have recently launched a way to still allow in app purchases in such? Also – on desktop many apps are Electron apps today, which is a user hostile workaround for lack of installable PWA:s.
- eecks 6y ago
  What is TWA:s?
  - VoxPelli 6y ago
    Sorry, should have included that: https://developers.google.com/web/android/trusted-web-activity https://developers.google.com/web/android/trusted-web-activi... Basically: It’s a way to verify that an app represents your site and then that app can open up the PWA inside it (a bit tricky to explain, but it’s great if one wants to be in the store and/or have an existing non-PWA app that one wants to upgrade to a PWA) More info: https://firt.dev/pwa-playstore https://firt.dev/pwa-playstore
mijoharas 6y ago
I can probably name 20 different websites that I use that have crappy apps (that they try and force on me). Using a PWA for any of those (provided it gets rid of their terrible app banners) solves that problem for me as a user. I don't want to try and guess which app has broken their copy/paste or back button and have 20 different slightly broken UI's and experiences. The advantage of the web is a consistent U.I. interface, with all the basics working (copy/paste, back button). This means there's a much higher chance of those working for the user, I don't see how you can say that's bad. Even ignoring that, which do you think would be better, a platform that they put 3* the amount of time into or 3 separate platforms (if the devs are forced to build the same thing 3 times)? There are many user benefits.
- albertgoeswoof 6y ago
  You’re talking about poorly designed web apps, which are designed to get users to convert to native apps because installed apps have a higher retention rate and are easier to siphon data from. PWAs don’t solve those problems for marketeers either. They just annoy end users by making them do some funny dance to get the app on their home page, which then barely works and doesn’t support all the features a native app can handle anyway. So you end up in a world where developers say “we have a mobile app, it’s a PWA, just install that” and then no one installs it because they don’t know how, and the marketeers get frustrated that the current web app isn’t sticky enough on mobile and so they add banners in to make people download the “real” app and you’re back to square one. The only real solution is cross platform development toolchains (like electron) as they reduce the development overhead but allow for native apps.
  - nottorp 6y ago
    Electron is native? It's just another copy of Chrome...
    - sp332 6y ago
      In context, they mean native installation and app management instead of teaching users how to "install" a PWA.
wayneftw 6y ago
Apps are actually user hostile by far. They're also developer hostile. Web apps are all about freedom. They're free for the developer to distribute, they allow the user freedom to run on any device they own and they also allow the user some freedom to alter the app via extensions/ad blocking/etc.

Fragoel2 6y ago

Maintaining 2 different apps (a native one and a web one) is costly in terms of time/resources. The point its not that developers "don't want" to make both, is that many don't have the resources to make both.

albertgoeswoof 6y ago
Right but how does that help users? If you don’t have the resources to build the right interfaces for them, then the business model isn’t working. Telling your customers to install a pwa is a terrible user experience and borderline rude
- The_Colonel 6y ago
  Not everyone is building a next Instagram for hundreds of millions users. There's a long tail of smaller business niches which might sustain a solo developer / small company and there having one codebase is obviously critical.
- _ink_ 6y ago
  Rude is telling developers their business model is not good, because they cannot affort to build native apps for Windows, Mac, Gnome, Kde, Android, iOS and web. If you cannot work with PWAs maybe you just aren't in the targeted user group.
- doteka 6y ago
  Hard disagree for the long tail of apps. My company’s payroll admin system uses a PWA as a mobile interface. I don’t need slick ui there, I need to view my payslips (click a link to open a pdf) and request time off (fill in a 4-field form). It’s perfectly fine for this usecase and there is no conceivable business value in pouring more resources into it. News flash: a majority of applications is simple CRUD like this. They don’t need a native UI or performance. They just need an icon on your homescreen.
- twobitshifter 6y ago
  Actually I find that the user experience on PWAs and Electron apps is better than that on native desktop apps. Developers have always been challenged in building desktop apps because the available toolkits are generally crusty, limited, and complex. GTK, TK, QT, Windows Forms, don’t compare well against what can be done in the DOM.
- postalrat 6y ago
  Nobody is telling users to install a PWA. Just because a site has all the features to be considered a PWA doesn't mean your user must use them. But they are telling users to install apps. Sites that depend on advertising want to force the app down your throat to eliminate ad blockers and to better track you.
jefftougas 6y ago
The core problem with PWAs is that ultimately the success of the overall idea is held hostage by the level of consensus across the browser development teams. Whilst they "collaborate" on "common" web standards (they being many, btw), iOS and Android (note: only 2) have very well defined apis for how to create awesome native UX. The problem of creating a unifying native abstraction (like react native or flutter) that is actually effective from the User's POV, is far more attainable, than that of trying to create a consistently awesome PWA with such inconsistent browser support, across a far greater multitude of platforms than the iOS / Android bifurcation in native-land. My $.02. PWAs have always seemed like one of those beautifully idealistic yet totally doomed to fail ideas (at least for several years relative to native-based-approaches). Don't get me wrong, I think the web will ultimately evolve into the new JVM (read: via WASM), and the beatific promise that was foretold by PWA will finally reach the masses. Reality Check: We're not quite there yet. Firefox deleting a legacy, buggy, and dev-time-sink attempt at this, makes total sense to me so they can focus on the other awesome stuff they're doing that actually creates real value for the masses today. To be fair - perhaps they could've handled the ticket on this a bit more gracefully...? But then again - they know their stuff, so I don't blame them entirely :)

Barrin92 6y ago

I think you have it the wrong way around. The app stores are user hostile. Building applications on the web rather than locking them down on platforms is a really good idea. And if anything developers should move towards them to break the store dominance whenever possible.

bzb6 6y ago
It’s been very long since they promised us that web apps that use systems such as Cordova would work as well as native apps. That hasn’t happened yet, and will never happen I guess.
tpxl 6y ago
Web apps have a tendency to disappear andor change without the users wants or needs. I agree app stores are user hostile, but so are web apps.
- radicalbyte 6y ago
  So do native apps, especially on iOS! It seems like every time I go back to using an iPad that I need to find replacements for a good number of apps.
- tehbeard 6y ago
  I've had a perfectly good MP3 player on my phone get deleted because Google can't be arsed to leave it alone, they want to force me to a subscription based app to play songs when it's in my pocket! That thing is 100% native code, don't act like web apps are the only thing to do this. You can be a bad actor regardless of the tech stack.
bluescrn 6y ago
Modern phones have very capable web browsers. But try to use them, and you get dumbed-down ‘mobile sites’ with massive ‘use the app instead!’ nags. The web on a mobile device is an unnecessarily lousy experience.

VoxPelli 6y ago

You do know that one can publish PWA:s to Google Play Store by using TWA:s + that Google are experimenting with allowing plain PWA:s there + have recently launched a way to still allow in app purchases in such? Also – on desktop many apps are Electron apps today, which is a user hostile workaround for lack of installable PWA:s.

eecks 6y ago
What is TWA:s?
- VoxPelli 6y ago
  Sorry, should have included that: https://developers.google.com/web/android/trusted-web-activity https://developers.google.com/web/android/trusted-web-activi... Basically: It’s a way to verify that an app represents your site and then that app can open up the PWA inside it (a bit tricky to explain, but it’s great if one wants to be in the store and/or have an existing non-PWA app that one wants to upgrade to a PWA) More info: https://firt.dev/pwa-playstore https://firt.dev/pwa-playstore

mijoharas 6y ago

I can probably name 20 different websites that I use that have crappy apps (that they try and force on me). Using a PWA for any of those (provided it gets rid of their terrible app banners) solves that problem for me as a user. I don't want to try and guess which app has broken their copy/paste or back button and have 20 different slightly broken UI's and experiences. The advantage of the web is a consistent U.I. interface, with all the basics working (copy/paste, back button). This means there's a much higher chance of those working for the user, I don't see how you can say that's bad. Even ignoring that, which do you think would be better, a platform that they put 3* the amount of time into or 3 separate platforms (if the devs are forced to build the same thing 3 times)? There are many user benefits.

albertgoeswoof 6y ago
You’re talking about poorly designed web apps, which are designed to get users to convert to native apps because installed apps have a higher retention rate and are easier to siphon data from. PWAs don’t solve those problems for marketeers either. They just annoy end users by making them do some funny dance to get the app on their home page, which then barely works and doesn’t support all the features a native app can handle anyway. So you end up in a world where developers say “we have a mobile app, it’s a PWA, just install that” and then no one installs it because they don’t know how, and the marketeers get frustrated that the current web app isn’t sticky enough on mobile and so they add banners in to make people download the “real” app and you’re back to square one. The only real solution is cross platform development toolchains (like electron) as they reduce the development overhead but allow for native apps.
- nottorp 6y ago
  Electron is native? It's just another copy of Chrome...
  - sp332 6y ago
    In context, they mean native installation and app management instead of teaching users how to "install" a PWA.

wayneftw 6y ago

Apps are actually user hostile by far. They're also developer hostile. Web apps are all about freedom. They're free for the developer to distribute, they allow the user freedom to run on any device they own and they also allow the user some freedom to alter the app via extensions/ad blocking/etc.