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> Nobody is arguing a tool like Flash shouldn’t exist; it should. People are arguing a runtime like Flash shouldn’t exist, and that HTML5 has all of the compone

by tapirl 6y ago

> Nobody is arguing a tool like Flash shouldn’t exist; it should. People are arguing a runtime like Flash shouldn’t exist, and that HTML5 has all of the components that are needed to be that runtime and then some. A tool should give us what Flash did but with the HTML runtime. The author doesn't argue a tool like Flash should exist. He just states the fact that HTML has still not caught up to fill the blank caused by Flash exiting yet, which is true IMO.

jchw 6y ago
If that’s their argument, it’s missing insight in my opinion. The Flash runtime itself is not particularly interesting, and in fact it’s full of undesirable problems. If you ignore the tooling of Flash, very little about it is appealing. If you even just ignore Flash itself and include Flex, Haxe, and other authoring tools that can deal in flash runtime, it still isn’t that appealing. These arguments get confusing because HTML, SVG and JavaScript are human readable and writeable. But that doesn’t mean the way someone should make animations in HTML5 is by typing coordinates into a text editor. If there really is a gap in the web runtime that Flash fills, what is it? Edit: also, I believe they are directly and indirectly arguing for the existence of such a tool: > 1) For 95% of applications you can just distribute a single SWF file > 2) You have a robust authoring tool that is animation/graphics-first and newbie friendly The first one is 100% technically possible with tooling; though admittedly better embedding of assets would be nice. The second one is just literally directly asking for such a tool.
- wvenable 6y ago
  > The Flash runtime itself is not particularly interesting, and in fact it’s full of undesirable problems. If you ignore the tooling of Flash, very little about it is appealing. The runtime and the tooling go together. The reason why tooling doesn't exist for HTML5, SVG, and Javascript is it's just so damn complex and fiddly that it's impossible to paper-over and abstract with a robust authoring tool. Both sides of Flash were designed for the ease of this kind of development. There hasn't been a good high-level authoring tool for HTML in decades and the situation is getting worse, not better.
  - auroranil 6y ago
    > The runtime and the tooling go together. The reason why tooling doesn't exist for HTML5, SVG, and Javascript is it's just so damn complex and fiddly that it's impossible to paper-over and abstract with a robust authoring tool. Indeed. The fact that Flash is proprietary meant that all browsers had to use the same software (up to versioning and OS API implementations) to run SWF files. Now with HTML5, developers now have to deal with differences between different browsers (Chromium/Safari/Firefox are the most popular ones).
- dmitriid 6y ago
  > The Flash runtime itself is not particularly interesting It was very interestin. Among the vastly underrated things it had was the insanely fast drawing of vector shapes with insane things like blazingly fast flood fills. It was extremely resilient in the presence of self-intersecting shapes, shapes of almost any complexity, open plygons etc. etc.
- castwide 6y ago
  > If you ignore the tooling of Flash, very little about it is appealing. The tooling seems to be what most people miss. That's not trivial. Adobe Animate is supposed to fill that void, but from what I've seen, it's a long way from a drop-in solution.
shawnz 6y ago
The author argues that a tool like Flash the authoring software should exist, but makes no argument about Flash the runtime. An authoring software just like Flash could exist for the HTML runtime -- it isn't the nature of HTML which is the problem. Thus it's not HTML which has to "catch up", but vendors of authoring software.
- tapirl 6y ago
  > The author argues that a tool like Flash the authoring software should exist, but makes no argument about Flash the runtime. Yes, this is what I meant. Sorry, I didn't clarify this in the replied comment. > it isn't the nature of HTML which is the problem It is in some degrees. The same html/js code might run some differently in different browsers, from either behaviors or performance aspects. On the other hand, Flash runtime only presents some small behavior differences on different OSes or with different CPU architectures. And for different OSes/browser combos with the same-power CPUs+GPUs, there is almost no performance differences.
  - wastholm 6y ago
    > On the other hand, Flash runtime only presents some small behavior differences on different OSes or with different CPU architectures. And for different OSes/browser combos with the same-power CPUs+GPUs, there is almost no performance differences. Really? Last time I used Flash, a few years ago when it still mattered, it used 100% CPU just to play video on Linux. The Windows version didn't seem to have this problem and I deduced that Adobe just didn't care about Linux.
- EamonnMR 6y ago
  We'll there we have it: we lived in a world with good tooling for creative works but a bad runtime, and we replaced the runtime without replacing the authoring tools. I think that's a shame.
  - Olreich 6y ago
    Adobe produced Flash and the authoring tools. They mostly gave up when Flash's runtime was deemed bad. Turns out, they have an authoring tool for HTML5 that looks a lot like flash: https://www.adobe.com/products/animate.html https://www.adobe.com/products/animate.html So, yeah, I'd question why Animate isn't good enough to fill Flash's role.

by tapirl 6y ago

jchw 6y ago

If that’s their argument, it’s missing insight in my opinion. The Flash runtime itself is not particularly interesting, and in fact it’s full of undesirable problems. If you ignore the tooling of Flash, very little about it is appealing. If you even just ignore Flash itself and include Flex, Haxe, and other authoring tools that can deal in flash runtime, it still isn’t that appealing. These arguments get confusing because HTML, SVG and JavaScript are human readable and writeable. But that doesn’t mean the way someone should make animations in HTML5 is by typing coordinates into a text editor. If there really is a gap in the web runtime that Flash fills, what is it? Edit: also, I believe they are directly and indirectly arguing for the existence of such a tool: > 1) For 95% of applications you can just distribute a single SWF file > 2) You have a robust authoring tool that is animation/graphics-first and newbie friendly The first one is 100% technically possible with tooling; though admittedly better embedding of assets would be nice. The second one is just literally directly asking for such a tool.

wvenable 6y ago
> The Flash runtime itself is not particularly interesting, and in fact it’s full of undesirable problems. If you ignore the tooling of Flash, very little about it is appealing. The runtime and the tooling go together. The reason why tooling doesn't exist for HTML5, SVG, and Javascript is it's just so damn complex and fiddly that it's impossible to paper-over and abstract with a robust authoring tool. Both sides of Flash were designed for the ease of this kind of development. There hasn't been a good high-level authoring tool for HTML in decades and the situation is getting worse, not better.
- auroranil 6y ago
  > The runtime and the tooling go together. The reason why tooling doesn't exist for HTML5, SVG, and Javascript is it's just so damn complex and fiddly that it's impossible to paper-over and abstract with a robust authoring tool. Indeed. The fact that Flash is proprietary meant that all browsers had to use the same software (up to versioning and OS API implementations) to run SWF files. Now with HTML5, developers now have to deal with differences between different browsers (Chromium/Safari/Firefox are the most popular ones).
dmitriid 6y ago
> The Flash runtime itself is not particularly interesting It was very interestin. Among the vastly underrated things it had was the insanely fast drawing of vector shapes with insane things like blazingly fast flood fills. It was extremely resilient in the presence of self-intersecting shapes, shapes of almost any complexity, open plygons etc. etc.
castwide 6y ago
> If you ignore the tooling of Flash, very little about it is appealing. The tooling seems to be what most people miss. That's not trivial. Adobe Animate is supposed to fill that void, but from what I've seen, it's a long way from a drop-in solution.

shawnz 6y ago

The author argues that a tool like Flash the authoring software should exist, but makes no argument about Flash the runtime. An authoring software just like Flash could exist for the HTML runtime -- it isn't the nature of HTML which is the problem. Thus it's not HTML which has to "catch up", but vendors of authoring software.

tapirl 6y ago
> The author argues that a tool like Flash the authoring software should exist, but makes no argument about Flash the runtime. Yes, this is what I meant. Sorry, I didn't clarify this in the replied comment. > it isn't the nature of HTML which is the problem It is in some degrees. The same html/js code might run some differently in different browsers, from either behaviors or performance aspects. On the other hand, Flash runtime only presents some small behavior differences on different OSes or with different CPU architectures. And for different OSes/browser combos with the same-power CPUs+GPUs, there is almost no performance differences.
- wastholm 6y ago
  > On the other hand, Flash runtime only presents some small behavior differences on different OSes or with different CPU architectures. And for different OSes/browser combos with the same-power CPUs+GPUs, there is almost no performance differences. Really? Last time I used Flash, a few years ago when it still mattered, it used 100% CPU just to play video on Linux. The Windows version didn't seem to have this problem and I deduced that Adobe just didn't care about Linux.
EamonnMR 6y ago
We'll there we have it: we lived in a world with good tooling for creative works but a bad runtime, and we replaced the runtime without replacing the authoring tools. I think that's a shame.
- Olreich 6y ago
  Adobe produced Flash and the authoring tools. They mostly gave up when Flash's runtime was deemed bad. Turns out, they have an authoring tool for HTML5 that looks a lot like flash: https://www.adobe.com/products/animate.html https://www.adobe.com/products/animate.html So, yeah, I'd question why Animate isn't good enough to fill Flash's role.