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It is very rare that the government hires engineers outside of contractors. I would argue compensation really is not that bad even for public employees (I was a

It is very rare that the government hires engineers outside of contractors. I would argue compensation really is not that bad even for public employees (I was a GS federal employee, work in private sector now). A couple of years in, you essentially have a job for life, more than fair compensation, pension, 401k matching, etc. BLS' estimate of average salary for a software engineer is 107k per year. It is not all that challenging to make that much as a government employee in the DC area (GS-13 step 2 is about what is comparable).

oivey 6y ago
GS-13 is a significant amount of experience and 107k isn’t a competitive wage for an engineer of that experience level, especially in tech. How can the government provide adequate technical oversight of its contractors if it doesn’t hire engineers? Answer: it can’t, and you can routinely see the results.
- bladegash 6y ago
  GS-13 is possible within two years of experience and depending on the agency, sometimes quicker. Yes, I can personally attest to this and it will depend on the agency. To reiterate though, outside of a few agencies, most engineers in government are contractors, not civilian employees. Their compensation is much higher.
  - oivey 6y ago
    Just to be clear, GS-15 is the absolute highest pay grade for regular federal employees. A GS-13 is supposed to require at least a Masters and a GS-14 a PhD. If you got 13 after a year, you have very little potential growth for the rest of your career. $107k really is not a very high wage relative to the labor market for high end engineers, especially in tech. Again, why would a good engineer work for the government? If the government can’t and won’t hire engineers, how can they create informed requirements for contracts or provide technical oversight of their contractors? You can see this playing out in boondoggle after boondoggle. The government poorly specifies a contract, a contractor bids on the contract, the government changes requirements over and over because the lack of technical expertise implies they have no idea what they want, the contractor rakes in tons of money due to direction changes, and eventually the contractor delivers something shitty because the people at the government also had no idea how to evaluate whether the contractor was meeting milestones.
    - bladegash 6y ago
      Ok, just to be clear, a GS-13 is comparable to a masters and a GS-14 is comparable to a PhD IF you are using education as your sole means of qualifying for the position. I was hired as a GS-11, promoted to GS-12 after one year, GS-13 after another, received two qualified step increases the year after, plus a regular step increase. So in a matter of three years, I was effectively promoted six times. Once you are on a career ladder there are no education requirements. In terms of GS-15, their pay goes up to 170k, so its not like GS-15 step 1 is the end of the road. Federal employees have also been receiving above-inflation pay raises and COLA adjustments the last few years. So why would a good engineer work for the government? Honestly, if pay is your only metric you use to choose your place of employment, then I would not expect them to. However, as I have mentioned, there are plenty of people in the world who choose their place of employment based on many factors other than compensation. Is government work frustrating? Sure. I'm sure the same can be said of for the engineer developing a CRUD application and has a shitty senior engineer overseeing them. Government work can also be incredibly rewarding and unfortunately, the majority of the time you only hear about the government failures instead of its successes. The federal government issues in excess of 500 billion in contracts per year...I assure you, there are successes in there and I have seen some federal agencies that have implemented acquisition processes and development practices that are competitive with some SV companies.
      - oivey 6y ago
        Not everyone is driven by money, but I think its fair to say that most people would take a job in industry where you can make 2-3x over a government job. I think this is born out in your own admission that it is very rare for government to hire engineers. Above inflation / COLA pay raises are table stakes for good engineers. If a good engineer in industry has only managed to get COLA pay raises over the last 5 years, they should quit. I've not claimed that government can't do anything right, and I strongly believe in government. I do however believe that current public policy is designed to cause government to fail. Lots of contracts in that yearly $500 billion are successful, but things like the F-35 program, the Littoral Combat Ship, the Space Launch System, Healthcare.gov, the fuck ups in this article, and more are big enough that they eat pretty significantly into that $500 billion budget. The government has some serious issues procuring engineering work. Some pork politics certainly contribute, but lack of technical expertise at federal agencies is, I think, a significant factor.

oivey 6y ago

GS-13 is a significant amount of experience and 107k isn’t a competitive wage for an engineer of that experience level, especially in tech. How can the government provide adequate technical oversight of its contractors if it doesn’t hire engineers? Answer: it can’t, and you can routinely see the results.

bladegash 6y ago
GS-13 is possible within two years of experience and depending on the agency, sometimes quicker. Yes, I can personally attest to this and it will depend on the agency. To reiterate though, outside of a few agencies, most engineers in government are contractors, not civilian employees. Their compensation is much higher.
- oivey 6y ago
  Just to be clear, GS-15 is the absolute highest pay grade for regular federal employees. A GS-13 is supposed to require at least a Masters and a GS-14 a PhD. If you got 13 after a year, you have very little potential growth for the rest of your career. $107k really is not a very high wage relative to the labor market for high end engineers, especially in tech. Again, why would a good engineer work for the government? If the government can’t and won’t hire engineers, how can they create informed requirements for contracts or provide technical oversight of their contractors? You can see this playing out in boondoggle after boondoggle. The government poorly specifies a contract, a contractor bids on the contract, the government changes requirements over and over because the lack of technical expertise implies they have no idea what they want, the contractor rakes in tons of money due to direction changes, and eventually the contractor delivers something shitty because the people at the government also had no idea how to evaluate whether the contractor was meeting milestones.
  - bladegash 6y ago
    Ok, just to be clear, a GS-13 is comparable to a masters and a GS-14 is comparable to a PhD IF you are using education as your sole means of qualifying for the position. I was hired as a GS-11, promoted to GS-12 after one year, GS-13 after another, received two qualified step increases the year after, plus a regular step increase. So in a matter of three years, I was effectively promoted six times. Once you are on a career ladder there are no education requirements. In terms of GS-15, their pay goes up to 170k, so its not like GS-15 step 1 is the end of the road. Federal employees have also been receiving above-inflation pay raises and COLA adjustments the last few years. So why would a good engineer work for the government? Honestly, if pay is your only metric you use to choose your place of employment, then I would not expect them to. However, as I have mentioned, there are plenty of people in the world who choose their place of employment based on many factors other than compensation. Is government work frustrating? Sure. I'm sure the same can be said of for the engineer developing a CRUD application and has a shitty senior engineer overseeing them. Government work can also be incredibly rewarding and unfortunately, the majority of the time you only hear about the government failures instead of its successes. The federal government issues in excess of 500 billion in contracts per year...I assure you, there are successes in there and I have seen some federal agencies that have implemented acquisition processes and development practices that are competitive with some SV companies.
    - oivey 6y ago
      Not everyone is driven by money, but I think its fair to say that most people would take a job in industry where you can make 2-3x over a government job. I think this is born out in your own admission that it is very rare for government to hire engineers. Above inflation / COLA pay raises are table stakes for good engineers. If a good engineer in industry has only managed to get COLA pay raises over the last 5 years, they should quit. I've not claimed that government can't do anything right, and I strongly believe in government. I do however believe that current public policy is designed to cause government to fail. Lots of contracts in that yearly $500 billion are successful, but things like the F-35 program, the Littoral Combat Ship, the Space Launch System, Healthcare.gov, the fuck ups in this article, and more are big enough that they eat pretty significantly into that $500 billion budget. The government has some serious issues procuring engineering work. Some pork politics certainly contribute, but lack of technical expertise at federal agencies is, I think, a significant factor.