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Not really. Japanese / SKorea success in tech are from massive conglomerates that function effectively the same as Chinese SEOs, see Chaebol, Zaibatsu. These ar

Not really. Japanese / SKorea success in tech are from massive conglomerates that function effectively the same as Chinese SEOs, see Chaebol, Zaibatsu. These are legacies of their authoritarian history. Free speech doesn't matter when building electronics or military hardware. It won't matter for semiconductors or turbojets. Japan / SKorea both have their indigenous nex-gen fighter programs, F-X2/3 for Japan, KAI KFX for Korea. China's J-20 that started a few years earlier is far more mature. Japan had help from US aviation and realized their indigenous capabilities were insufficient. J20 also ahead of Russian gen5, Su57 in most technical categories except power plant. Pattern is to copy 1 or 2 generations to learn and then indigenize. Maybe free speech matters for commercial cultural products, but the media products China exports like video games would suggest no. China under Xi is going in the right direction for global dominance for the simple reason that he's one of the first leader since Mao to take military modernization seriously. Chinese money talks, but military hardware gatekeeps whether that conversation to happen in the first place. Which matters more and more now that China containment is official US policy. The alternative to Xi was Bo Xilai who would never have reformed the corrupt and ineffective military old guard. Now China has a massively expanding Navy with growing blue water capabilities, SCS bases, space infrastructure and enough indigenous weapons that even belligerent US under Pompeo doesn't have the guts to sail carrier through the Taiwan strait anymore. Clinton sent two. I use to be a Xi doubter, but it's hard to argue he's not doing an incredible job.

chaostheory 6y ago
> Not really. Japanese / SKorea success in tech are from massive conglomerates that function effectively the same as Chinese SEOs, see Chaebol, Zaibatsu. That's only part of the picture. I'm talking more lower level ie. artists, engineers and scientists Sure, you need the infrastructure for investment and manufacturing but that doesn't solve the problem of nationally, stunted creativity > Free speech doesn't matter when building electronics or military hardware It does matter if you want to build something original and innovative, instead of yet another cheap copy. That requires creativity, which is dependent on free speech. I mean just take a look at mainland entertainment. Most of it consists of movies and shows about the distant past. It's not even close to what could have been done like what you see in Japan or SK. Maybe if China had a more individualist society, you'd have a better argument or even proof beyond one off exceptions like DJI > China under Xi is going in the right direction for global dominance for the simple reason that he's one of the first leader since Mao to take military modernization seriously... Now China has a massively expanding Navy with growing blue water capabilities, SCS bases, space infrastructure and enough indigenous weapons that even belligerent US under Pompeo doesn't have the guts to sail carrier through the Taiwan strait anymore. What does this matter when everyone important already has global, ballistic nuclear missiles? One could argue that it's a drain on GDP when it could be spent elsewhere. Most of the US deficit is due to wasteful, military spending. > The alternative to Xi was Bo Xilai who would never have reformed the corrupt and ineffective military old guard. How do you even know there are actual reforms vs Xi just having a good excuse for rounding up his enemies like Putin, when there's no free press?
- dirtyid 6y ago
  Where is evidence of nationally stunted creativity except dogwhistle talking points? There's no shortage of top tier Chinese designers across many fields where subjects tend to be more apolitical. In technical disciplines China is either climbing or on top of innovation / research / patent indexes normalized for quality i.e. not junk. The only thing China is stunted in is team sports. Which is perplexing, I guess too individualist. >That requires creativity, which is dependent on free speech. Citation needed. There's more to "entertainment" than mass media subject to rigorous censorship. Chinese entertainment is great if you don't care about politics. Great soviet artists existed under USSR. Chinese cinema tackled politics under CCP pre 90s when political discussion was less restricted. Censorship redirects where creativity goes, Chinese market likes their entertainment fine. >original and innovative Those aren't important priorities for military acquisition. Copy what works if it fits needs, innovate where it doesn't. China innovates on rocket force to sink US carriers, hence ahead in hypersonics. It matters because before nuclear war is conventional war. Conventional capability require to solve border disputes, become regional hegemon of a bunch of middle powers without nukes. And at minimum they need conventional capabilities to retake Taiwan. > actual reforms CCDI investigated/punished over 1M+ party officials, even Xi doesn't have that many enemies. But of course there was element of power consolidation, and completely justified in retrospect now that CIA confirmed (just this month) how far they've infiltrated CCP under Hu. This was suspected at time of CIA China debacle, but recent confirmation solidified that Xi was the right choice. As for actual reforms, PLAN building more tonnage in new ships per year than entire region combined. Western thinktanks analyze Chinese military modernization to death.
  - chaostheory 6y ago
    > Where is evidence of nationally stunted creativity except dogwhistle talking points? You're asking for evidence, yet you're not providing any either. You're partially right though. With China's gradual opening, there have been more mainland Chinese entering higher tiers in various disciplines. Still, that's not to say that China's creativity isn't crippled by its government. Personally, I feel it's a drop compared to what could be with a more democratic government. Also everything that we've seen so far is due to China opening up and decentralizing. I predict the opposite will happen in the future as Xi reverses the trend. Yes, it's conjecture, and I hope I'm wrong. > Chinese entertainment is great if you don't care about politics. This is just personal taste but imo it's terrible. The only works that have freedom are nationalistic in nature like the Three Body Problem, where it's easy to see what it really is once you substitute the West for the "aliens". Everything else is mostly historical fiction set in ancient times, or maybe some time around WWII. My guess for this is because it's easier not to run the ire of the CCP if you're doing fictional work in a setting that happened hundreds of years ago. > China innovates on rocket force to sink US carriers, hence ahead in hypersonics. Are they really Chinese innovations or Chinese retrofitted Russian designs? I don't know enough about modern Chinese rockets, so I'm actually asking a question, because historically most Chinese military equipment are variants of Russian models. > It matters because before nuclear war is conventional war. Conventional capability require to solve border disputes, become regional hegemon of a bunch of middle powers without nukes. India also has ballistic nuclear weapons, and so does Japan... It's good to know that China's leaders have the same logic as US leadership. For the US, imo our defense budget is a mainly a cover for massive corruption. > CCDI investigated/punished over 1M+ party officials, even Xi doesn't have that many enemies. But of course there was element of power consolidation, and completely justified in retrospect now that CIA confirmed (just this month) how far they've infiltrated CCP under Hu. Chinese politics have varying factions which are made up of many members. It's not like anti-corruption drives are a new tactic to remove your rivals in China. I mean you even admit it. This is not an emotional discussion for me, but I feel that it is for you. If I'm right on this, I'm not looking to insult you, and if continuing this discussion is going to make you angry; I'd rather end it now because it's not going to change anyone's views.
LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
Regarding Japan, their https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2 had the first https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_electronically_scanned_array https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_electronically_scanned_... with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J/APG-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J/APG-1 which is the key part for a modern fighter. Developed by themselves. The rest is more or less exchangable. Could have used some Mirage/Rafale/Gripen/Mig/Sukhoi too.
- dirtyid 6y ago
  F-X2 (gen 4+ with stealth), not F-2 (gen 4) which was joint JP/US project. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_X-2_Shinshin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_X-2_Shinshin F-X2 was primarily indigenous effort after US refused to export F22s. IIRC another factor was US was not forthcoming with tech/knowledge transfer on F2 project. F-X2 still had some US help, but stopped after demonstrator. Then rebooted into F-X / F-3 Godzilla recently, international project in draft stage. So to date, no tangible gen5 effort.

chaostheory 6y ago

> Not really. Japanese / SKorea success in tech are from massive conglomerates that function effectively the same as Chinese SEOs, see Chaebol, Zaibatsu. That's only part of the picture. I'm talking more lower level ie. artists, engineers and scientists Sure, you need the infrastructure for investment and manufacturing but that doesn't solve the problem of nationally, stunted creativity > Free speech doesn't matter when building electronics or military hardware It does matter if you want to build something original and innovative, instead of yet another cheap copy. That requires creativity, which is dependent on free speech. I mean just take a look at mainland entertainment. Most of it consists of movies and shows about the distant past. It's not even close to what could have been done like what you see in Japan or SK. Maybe if China had a more individualist society, you'd have a better argument or even proof beyond one off exceptions like DJI > China under Xi is going in the right direction for global dominance for the simple reason that he's one of the first leader since Mao to take military modernization seriously... Now China has a massively expanding Navy with growing blue water capabilities, SCS bases, space infrastructure and enough indigenous weapons that even belligerent US under Pompeo doesn't have the guts to sail carrier through the Taiwan strait anymore. What does this matter when everyone important already has global, ballistic nuclear missiles? One could argue that it's a drain on GDP when it could be spent elsewhere. Most of the US deficit is due to wasteful, military spending. > The alternative to Xi was Bo Xilai who would never have reformed the corrupt and ineffective military old guard. How do you even know there are actual reforms vs Xi just having a good excuse for rounding up his enemies like Putin, when there's no free press?

dirtyid 6y ago
Where is evidence of nationally stunted creativity except dogwhistle talking points? There's no shortage of top tier Chinese designers across many fields where subjects tend to be more apolitical. In technical disciplines China is either climbing or on top of innovation / research / patent indexes normalized for quality i.e. not junk. The only thing China is stunted in is team sports. Which is perplexing, I guess too individualist. >That requires creativity, which is dependent on free speech. Citation needed. There's more to "entertainment" than mass media subject to rigorous censorship. Chinese entertainment is great if you don't care about politics. Great soviet artists existed under USSR. Chinese cinema tackled politics under CCP pre 90s when political discussion was less restricted. Censorship redirects where creativity goes, Chinese market likes their entertainment fine. >original and innovative Those aren't important priorities for military acquisition. Copy what works if it fits needs, innovate where it doesn't. China innovates on rocket force to sink US carriers, hence ahead in hypersonics. It matters because before nuclear war is conventional war. Conventional capability require to solve border disputes, become regional hegemon of a bunch of middle powers without nukes. And at minimum they need conventional capabilities to retake Taiwan. > actual reforms CCDI investigated/punished over 1M+ party officials, even Xi doesn't have that many enemies. But of course there was element of power consolidation, and completely justified in retrospect now that CIA confirmed (just this month) how far they've infiltrated CCP under Hu. This was suspected at time of CIA China debacle, but recent confirmation solidified that Xi was the right choice. As for actual reforms, PLAN building more tonnage in new ships per year than entire region combined. Western thinktanks analyze Chinese military modernization to death.
- chaostheory 6y ago
  > Where is evidence of nationally stunted creativity except dogwhistle talking points? You're asking for evidence, yet you're not providing any either. You're partially right though. With China's gradual opening, there have been more mainland Chinese entering higher tiers in various disciplines. Still, that's not to say that China's creativity isn't crippled by its government. Personally, I feel it's a drop compared to what could be with a more democratic government. Also everything that we've seen so far is due to China opening up and decentralizing. I predict the opposite will happen in the future as Xi reverses the trend. Yes, it's conjecture, and I hope I'm wrong. > Chinese entertainment is great if you don't care about politics. This is just personal taste but imo it's terrible. The only works that have freedom are nationalistic in nature like the Three Body Problem, where it's easy to see what it really is once you substitute the West for the "aliens". Everything else is mostly historical fiction set in ancient times, or maybe some time around WWII. My guess for this is because it's easier not to run the ire of the CCP if you're doing fictional work in a setting that happened hundreds of years ago. > China innovates on rocket force to sink US carriers, hence ahead in hypersonics. Are they really Chinese innovations or Chinese retrofitted Russian designs? I don't know enough about modern Chinese rockets, so I'm actually asking a question, because historically most Chinese military equipment are variants of Russian models. > It matters because before nuclear war is conventional war. Conventional capability require to solve border disputes, become regional hegemon of a bunch of middle powers without nukes. India also has ballistic nuclear weapons, and so does Japan... It's good to know that China's leaders have the same logic as US leadership. For the US, imo our defense budget is a mainly a cover for massive corruption. > CCDI investigated/punished over 1M+ party officials, even Xi doesn't have that many enemies. But of course there was element of power consolidation, and completely justified in retrospect now that CIA confirmed (just this month) how far they've infiltrated CCP under Hu. Chinese politics have varying factions which are made up of many members. It's not like anti-corruption drives are a new tactic to remove your rivals in China. I mean you even admit it. This is not an emotional discussion for me, but I feel that it is for you. If I'm right on this, I'm not looking to insult you, and if continuing this discussion is going to make you angry; I'd rather end it now because it's not going to change anyone's views.

LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago

Regarding Japan, their https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_F-2 had the first https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_electronically_scanned_array https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_electronically_scanned_... with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J/APG-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J/APG-1 which is the key part for a modern fighter. Developed by themselves. The rest is more or less exchangable. Could have used some Mirage/Rafale/Gripen/Mig/Sukhoi too.

dirtyid 6y ago
F-X2 (gen 4+ with stealth), not F-2 (gen 4) which was joint JP/US project. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_X-2_Shinshin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_X-2_Shinshin F-X2 was primarily indigenous effort after US refused to export F22s. IIRC another factor was US was not forthcoming with tech/knowledge transfer on F2 project. F-X2 still had some US help, but stopped after demonstrator. Then rebooted into F-X / F-3 Godzilla recently, international project in draft stage. So to date, no tangible gen5 effort.