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I think the public focus on cost has paradoxically led to this situation. If you’re a good engineer, why work for the government? The compensation is extremely

by oivey 6y ago

I think the public focus on cost has paradoxically led to this situation. If you’re a good engineer, why work for the government? The compensation is extremely poor compared to industry, especially in tech. The lazy/incompetent people at the top have remained there because they’re too lazy/incompetent to leave for much greener pastures. If you fired them, their replacements will be at least as bad (on average, there are some passionate and competent people), since now the pay is poor and evidently there isn’t even job security. We’ve built a system where we refuse to pay public servants. We shouldn’t be surprised when a system designed to attract below average people leads to projects with below average results.

DethNinja 6y ago
Is it really true that government jobs pay less than their private counterparts? In Canada government jobs are actually provide far more compensation than private ones but I guess it might be different for USA.
- jcranmer 6y ago
  In the US, actual public employees (not contractors!) are generally required to be paid according to the GS payscales: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/20Tables/html/GS.aspx https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries... A GS-9, which is roughly a freshly-minted graduate with a Master's degree, starts at $45k/year, growing to about $60k/year (although this is also adjusted by locality). This is well below prevailing tech sector rates.
  - DethNinja 6y ago
    Thanks for the data, yep that’s pretty bad.
treis 6y ago
It's not the amount of pay. It's that results (good or bad) don't really impact your salary. Nobody missed a bonus for the project failing and nobody would have gotten one for it succeeding. The consultants have even worse incentives. The better they do the less they get paid. Meaning, it's better for them if the project drags on than delivering something on time.
- the-pigeon 6y ago
  This is a very common myth in business. Bonuses in most situations lead to a decrease in productivity. https://hbr.org/1993/09/why-incentive-plans-cannot-work https://hbr.org/1993/09/why-incentive-plans-cannot-work https://smallbusiness.chron.com/bonuses-affect-employees-work-performance-11515.html https://smallbusiness.chron.com/bonuses-affect-employees-wor... https://hbr.org/2017/03/research-how-incentive-pay-affects-employee-engagement-satisfaction-and-trust https://hbr.org/2017/03/research-how-incentive-pay-affects-e... There's a ton of research out there on this. To simplify it basically if someone is doing mindless work like putting a cap on a bottle on an assembly line, then bonuses increase performance in the long term. But if they are doing complex work like writing software they decrease performance in the long term.
bladegash 6y ago
Have you ever worked on a federal contract? The compensation really is not poor, unless you’re comparing it to say FAANG compensation, which is not really normal. They make as much, if not more, than current market rates. There is significant job security (contract with three year period of performance is essentially guaranteed work for 3+ years), annual bonuses, etc. The idea propagated by many here that engineers who work as government contractors are somehow less than is nauseating and untrue. Believe it or not, a whole world of talented people exists outside of the bubble you live in. Yes, there are bad apples, as with every industry, and we are all just throwing out anecdotes, but the vast majority of people I worked with in government were A) hard workers, and B) overqualified for their positions, and C) highly educated/talented.
- ampdepolymerase 6y ago
  I don't doubt they are hard workers and intelligent. But if OP is judging them by SV standards of talent then it's not exactly fair. Building a successful company requires a certain drive, risk appetite, and revolutionary zeal that are not easily found in government (and to a lesser extent, academia). There are smart people everywhere but most would never make a significant impact.
  - bladegash 6y ago
    It requires a difference of priorities and ambitions. What draws people to the DC area is not the same as what draws them to SV. It’s not a disparity of capability. Aside from that, your point really is not accurate. There are plenty of companies and entrepreneurs users in the DC area that generate FAR more value and revenue than SV startups. Take a look at the wealthiest counties in the US. Loudoun County and Fairfax County have been the top of that list for a while. Or Montgomery County for that matter.
    - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
      Would you truly consider old money, government regulatory capture/lobbying and defence to be in the same category as startups? They are completely different types of innovation. There job is done once a specific policy is achieved. Overarching changes to the system is often not their priority.
ric2b 6y ago
I don't see how your argument fits the situation, the government is clearly not focusing on costs if it's wasting millions of dollars on obviously not viable projects and paying consultants $200/h to sit around for months waiting for a security clearance...
- oivey 6y ago
  There's definitely a focus on cost. It is just misguided. Short of not having security clearances, I'm not sure how you can avoid paying people to wait for them. Simple projects, like properly paying people unemployment benefits, have become not viable for the government to execute. There are many reasons why this has happened, but I think the erosion of technical expertise in the government is a big contributor. Rather than paying market rates for engineering talent, the government hires a bunch of individually cheaper non-engineers to oversee technical projects. The government could save a lot of money by hiring a handful of competent engineers rather than a ton of nontechnical management. Relatedly, I think the government could probably save a ton of money with some in house technical talent to execute basic projects like the systems in this article rather than going through the crazy procurement process. It isn't clear to me that contractors are providing any added value to justify the added cost for their profit.

by oivey 6y ago

DethNinja 6y ago

Is it really true that government jobs pay less than their private counterparts? In Canada government jobs are actually provide far more compensation than private ones but I guess it might be different for USA.

jcranmer 6y ago
In the US, actual public employees (not contractors!) are generally required to be paid according to the GS payscales: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/20Tables/html/GS.aspx https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries... A GS-9, which is roughly a freshly-minted graduate with a Master's degree, starts at $45k/year, growing to about $60k/year (although this is also adjusted by locality). This is well below prevailing tech sector rates.
- DethNinja 6y ago
  Thanks for the data, yep that’s pretty bad.

treis 6y ago

It's not the amount of pay. It's that results (good or bad) don't really impact your salary. Nobody missed a bonus for the project failing and nobody would have gotten one for it succeeding. The consultants have even worse incentives. The better they do the less they get paid. Meaning, it's better for them if the project drags on than delivering something on time.

the-pigeon 6y ago
This is a very common myth in business. Bonuses in most situations lead to a decrease in productivity. https://hbr.org/1993/09/why-incentive-plans-cannot-work https://hbr.org/1993/09/why-incentive-plans-cannot-work https://smallbusiness.chron.com/bonuses-affect-employees-work-performance-11515.html https://smallbusiness.chron.com/bonuses-affect-employees-wor... https://hbr.org/2017/03/research-how-incentive-pay-affects-employee-engagement-satisfaction-and-trust https://hbr.org/2017/03/research-how-incentive-pay-affects-e... There's a ton of research out there on this. To simplify it basically if someone is doing mindless work like putting a cap on a bottle on an assembly line, then bonuses increase performance in the long term. But if they are doing complex work like writing software they decrease performance in the long term.

bladegash 6y ago

Have you ever worked on a federal contract? The compensation really is not poor, unless you’re comparing it to say FAANG compensation, which is not really normal. They make as much, if not more, than current market rates. There is significant job security (contract with three year period of performance is essentially guaranteed work for 3+ years), annual bonuses, etc. The idea propagated by many here that engineers who work as government contractors are somehow less than is nauseating and untrue. Believe it or not, a whole world of talented people exists outside of the bubble you live in. Yes, there are bad apples, as with every industry, and we are all just throwing out anecdotes, but the vast majority of people I worked with in government were A) hard workers, and B) overqualified for their positions, and C) highly educated/talented.

ampdepolymerase 6y ago
I don't doubt they are hard workers and intelligent. But if OP is judging them by SV standards of talent then it's not exactly fair. Building a successful company requires a certain drive, risk appetite, and revolutionary zeal that are not easily found in government (and to a lesser extent, academia). There are smart people everywhere but most would never make a significant impact.
- bladegash 6y ago
  It requires a difference of priorities and ambitions. What draws people to the DC area is not the same as what draws them to SV. It’s not a disparity of capability. Aside from that, your point really is not accurate. There are plenty of companies and entrepreneurs users in the DC area that generate FAR more value and revenue than SV startups. Take a look at the wealthiest counties in the US. Loudoun County and Fairfax County have been the top of that list for a while. Or Montgomery County for that matter.
  - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
    Would you truly consider old money, government regulatory capture/lobbying and defence to be in the same category as startups? They are completely different types of innovation. There job is done once a specific policy is achieved. Overarching changes to the system is often not their priority.

ric2b 6y ago

I don't see how your argument fits the situation, the government is clearly not focusing on costs if it's wasting millions of dollars on obviously not viable projects and paying consultants $200/h to sit around for months waiting for a security clearance...

oivey 6y ago
There's definitely a focus on cost. It is just misguided. Short of not having security clearances, I'm not sure how you can avoid paying people to wait for them. Simple projects, like properly paying people unemployment benefits, have become not viable for the government to execute. There are many reasons why this has happened, but I think the erosion of technical expertise in the government is a big contributor. Rather than paying market rates for engineering talent, the government hires a bunch of individually cheaper non-engineers to oversee technical projects. The government could save a lot of money by hiring a handful of competent engineers rather than a ton of nontechnical management. Relatedly, I think the government could probably save a ton of money with some in house technical talent to execute basic projects like the systems in this article rather than going through the crazy procurement process. It isn't clear to me that contractors are providing any added value to justify the added cost for their profit.