6 ms·

There is also huge support to reduce high crime rates. People will compromise some things to achieve this.

craftinator 6y ago
This type of surveillance doesn't reduce crime rate, and your vote on the matter is meaningless if the people doing the surveillance are LYING to you about what that surveillance entails.
- google234123 6y ago
  How do you know that?
  - cultus 6y ago
    How do you know it does? The pro-surveillence side needs to put forth positive evidence. The precautionary principle is the only just, non-authoritarian option for situations like this. I know the targets are mostly in neighborhoods that you probably don't frequent, but those people have the same rights you do, and that includes the right to reasonable privacy.
    - asdfadsfgfdda 6y ago
      They do publish evidence. Seems to increase the "closure" rate by 5-10%. It's not perfect data, because they are only flying during the day, so crime committed at night may just be harder to solve. https://www.baltimorepolice.org/sites/default/files/General%20Website%20PDFs/Mid_Term_Report_AIR_Pilot_Program.pdf https://www.baltimorepolice.org/sites/default/files/General%...
      - cultus 6y ago
        Sorry, but that's not a reliable source.
nobody9999 6y ago
> There is also huge support to reduce high crime rates. People will compromise some things to achieve this. Except crime rates are at their lowest points in decades[0]. [0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/americas-faulty-perception-crime-rates https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/amer...
- google234123 6y ago
  In Baltimore?
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    Yes, even in Baltimore, where both violent crime and property crime are less than half what they were 25 years ago. Crime won't usually hit an all-time-low every single year, but it was much higher in the past than the present.
  - nobody9999 6y ago
    Yes. Violent crime is down. Even in Baltimore[0]. [0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/takeaways-2019-crime-data-major-american-cities https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/take...
  - cultus 6y ago
    Perhaps you need to change your news sources, because you have a very warped idea of how violent inner cities are. It's not the 1970's.
    - google234123 6y ago
      According to the wiki page on this, the murder rate is now 3 times high than 1977 (start of data on the table).
      - nobody9999 6y ago
        >According to the wiki page on this, the murder rate is now 3 times high than 1977 (start of data on the table). From the link[0] I posted previously" "Lastly, we turn to another place where crime and violence spiked in 2015: Baltimore. This year, Baltimore’s story continues to be a mixed one. The total number of crimes reported in the city fell by almost 6 percent compared to 2018 (through the last week of November), with violent crime falling by about 2.5 percent. Robbery, burglary, theft, and auto theft decreased modestly, while reported rape fell dramatically — with law enforcement documenting nearly 26 percent fewer offenses." As I said, crime is down in Baltimore. Continuing to say say "crime is up in Baltimore" doesn't make it true. [0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/takeaways-2019-crime-data-major-american-cities https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/take...
valuearb 6y ago
It’s hard to reduce crime rates when you constantly manufacture new types of victimless crimes and create lucrative black markets to incentivize participants to use assault, intimidation and murder in the course of business.
- google234123 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore I'm pretty sure rape, murder, burglary, and assault aren't victimless. Feel free to educate yourself, it looks like the rates of these horrible crimes are going upwards.
  - valuearb 6y ago
    Let me educate you on causative factors. Many homicides are the byproduct of the war on drugs. Drug use itself is a victimless crime. During prohibition the national murder rate was incredibly high. When alcohol was legalized suddenly the murder rate plummeted. You see, when you take a popular substance and make sale/distribution illegal, you create an opportunity for those willing to take the risk to get rich making and selling said substance. But the problem with getting rich that way is now you have a bullseye on your back. your place of business is loaded with cash and valuable substances. It’s hard to put cash in banks without risking arrest, and you can’t call the police if someone threatens or steals from you. But you can easily afford your own guns, and your own security. And when someone tries to kill you or steal from you or rat you out, you just kill them. After all, the prison sentences for trafficking are just as bad as the ones for murder, so you won’t be making things worse for yourself. And the good news is you have plenty of money to pay others to do lots of crimes to protect your business and markets. Enough to buy your own corrupt cops even. Not only will they top you off, but they’ll be happy to no knock raid your competitors. All of this is equally true for pimps (why hire willing sex workers when unwilling are cheaper? After all you going to jail either way, make no money while the sin shines), and bookies, and gambling operations, etc, etc, etc.

This type of surveillance doesn't reduce crime rate, and your vote on the matter is meaningless if the people doing the surveillance are LYING to you about what that surveillance entails.

google234123 6y ago
How do you know that?
- cultus 6y ago
  How do you know it does? The pro-surveillence side needs to put forth positive evidence. The precautionary principle is the only just, non-authoritarian option for situations like this. I know the targets are mostly in neighborhoods that you probably don't frequent, but those people have the same rights you do, and that includes the right to reasonable privacy.
  - asdfadsfgfdda 6y ago
    They do publish evidence. Seems to increase the "closure" rate by 5-10%. It's not perfect data, because they are only flying during the day, so crime committed at night may just be harder to solve. https://www.baltimorepolice.org/sites/default/files/General%20Website%20PDFs/Mid_Term_Report_AIR_Pilot_Program.pdf https://www.baltimorepolice.org/sites/default/files/General%...
    - cultus 6y ago
      Sorry, but that's not a reliable source.

nobody9999 6y ago

> There is also huge support to reduce high crime rates. People will compromise some things to achieve this. Except crime rates are at their lowest points in decades[0]. [0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/americas-faulty-perception-crime-rates https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/amer...

google234123 6y ago
In Baltimore?
- jeffbee 6y ago
  Yes, even in Baltimore, where both violent crime and property crime are less than half what they were 25 years ago. Crime won't usually hit an all-time-low every single year, but it was much higher in the past than the present.
- nobody9999 6y ago
  Yes. Violent crime is down. Even in Baltimore[0]. [0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/takeaways-2019-crime-data-major-american-cities https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/take...
- cultus 6y ago
  Perhaps you need to change your news sources, because you have a very warped idea of how violent inner cities are. It's not the 1970's.
  - google234123 6y ago
    According to the wiki page on this, the murder rate is now 3 times high than 1977 (start of data on the table).
    - nobody9999 6y ago
      >According to the wiki page on this, the murder rate is now 3 times high than 1977 (start of data on the table). From the link[0] I posted previously" "Lastly, we turn to another place where crime and violence spiked in 2015: Baltimore. This year, Baltimore’s story continues to be a mixed one. The total number of crimes reported in the city fell by almost 6 percent compared to 2018 (through the last week of November), with violent crime falling by about 2.5 percent. Robbery, burglary, theft, and auto theft decreased modestly, while reported rape fell dramatically — with law enforcement documenting nearly 26 percent fewer offenses." As I said, crime is down in Baltimore. Continuing to say say "crime is up in Baltimore" doesn't make it true. [0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/takeaways-2019-crime-data-major-american-cities https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/take...

valuearb 6y ago

It’s hard to reduce crime rates when you constantly manufacture new types of victimless crimes and create lucrative black markets to incentivize participants to use assault, intimidation and murder in the course of business.

google234123 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore I'm pretty sure rape, murder, burglary, and assault aren't victimless. Feel free to educate yourself, it looks like the rates of these horrible crimes are going upwards.
- valuearb 6y ago
  Let me educate you on causative factors. Many homicides are the byproduct of the war on drugs. Drug use itself is a victimless crime. During prohibition the national murder rate was incredibly high. When alcohol was legalized suddenly the murder rate plummeted. You see, when you take a popular substance and make sale/distribution illegal, you create an opportunity for those willing to take the risk to get rich making and selling said substance. But the problem with getting rich that way is now you have a bullseye on your back. your place of business is loaded with cash and valuable substances. It’s hard to put cash in banks without risking arrest, and you can’t call the police if someone threatens or steals from you. But you can easily afford your own guns, and your own security. And when someone tries to kill you or steal from you or rat you out, you just kill them. After all, the prison sentences for trafficking are just as bad as the ones for murder, so you won’t be making things worse for yourself. And the good news is you have plenty of money to pay others to do lots of crimes to protect your business and markets. Enough to buy your own corrupt cops even. Not only will they top you off, but they’ll be happy to no knock raid your competitors. All of this is equally true for pimps (why hire willing sex workers when unwilling are cheaper? After all you going to jail either way, make no money while the sin shines), and bookies, and gambling operations, etc, etc, etc.