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" This entire election cycle is a mess" To be clear - the election is not a mess. Even though we don't have 'state ID' the processes overall are legit on the

by jariel 6y ago

" This entire election cycle is a mess" To be clear - the election is not a mess. Even though we don't have 'state ID' the processes overall are legit on the whole. There is no systematic fraud. It appears as a mess because of the messaging of the President. That said: there are obviously antiquated and non-standardized problems - literally just yesterday, Stacey Abrahams sister, a Georgia Judge, had to rule on ballots being thrown out. It's politicized. So having ID would not so much make elections more fair (they are effectively fair), but it would give more confidence in elections. Also - the genie may be out of the bottle and we may be in a new era where a) people try to actually cheat and b) losers of elections refuse to concede based on lies. So it might be a good time to modernize with ID, and it would help with those problems. .... It 'needs to be free' because the some will otherwise believe it's voter suppression. Having a $10 payment would actually theoretically suppress some people from voting. In practice, I don't think that would be the case, but it's enough to blow it up. Homeless people are still 'citizens' - and 'citizenship' is not based on whether or not you have $10. Which is a fair argument (even through pragmatically a side show, because you need to have an address to vote already today). Citizenship is a right not a privilege ... so just make it free. Politically, they could make it an extension of SS - it's just 'SS with a photo' kind of thing.

nelsonenzo 6y ago
considering we have $36B that we can afford to send to Nigeria, I think we could just make the ID free. Certainly we have all contributed at least $10 to the tax coffers at some point above 18.
djsumdog 6y ago
> There is no systematic fraud. > It appears as a mess because of the messaging of the President. We have GOP observers being thrown out of all of the critical election sites during the counting. We have tons of unsolicited ballots with no chain of custody. We have tons of confirmed cases of dead people voting, and women having votes case under maiden names. There is unmistakable, wide spread, voting irregularity. This isn't just the messaging of the president, this is a corrupt media that is on the side of establishment Democrats and Republicans that is clearly feeding a pure bullshit narrative to anyone willing to dull their senses, turn off all sources except the official industry standard media (Which got weapons of mass destruction wrong, which got Syria wrong, and which has a historic record of getting nearly everything wrong). If you stop listening to the various Ministries of Truth (both private and government) the entire idea there was "no election fraud" falls apart. The voting machines were/are a red haring. The real issue has always been the massive amounts of ballots with no chain of custody.
- ric2b 6y ago
  The courts have looked at these allegations and the actual evidence is slim to none, and far from being about a big enough number of votes to change the result of the election, it's not even enough to change the result in one state.
- ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
  [citation needed]
- jariel 6y ago
  This is not true, and the and a good example of conspiratorial rationalization. Why doesn't Mike Pence, the VP back your claims? Are you saying you have more information that him? Why don't any GOP Senators? Judges? Consider if 'bad elections' claims had any merit whatsoever, the real GOP apparatus would be running full tilt at the problem. The Supreme Court would practically be inviting cases. Arguing that 'irregularities exist' is not an argument - because we know they exist, what matters is the magnitude and systematic efforts. The 'conspiratorial argument' falls apart immediately under any scrutiny - and there has been a lot of scrutiny. So we have a problem with giving out money, and appearance of problems in voting, maybe we can have 'voter ID' and get around some of the legitimacy/privacy issues. But the elections are effectively fair. Please try to understand that this is an issue of public communications and conspiratorial logic, and not reality. The 'ministries of truth' have considerably more integrity - especially as a whole - then
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
Like a third to a half of the country thinks the election was illegitimate depending on how you phrase the question. I'd call that "a mess" It doesn't matter whether there was or wasn't fraud in this context. A government is only legitimate because the people believe it is. The appearance of fraud challenges that belief. Challenge that belief enough and people die. The system needs to be sufficiently robust that the result cannot be disputed with any sort of credibility. If I need to pay a hundred bucks to get permission to buy a gun, DHS can search people with no reason within a hundred miles of the border, cops can seize your cash without evidence of a crime (I can go on) and the and all that's compatible with the constitution, then everyone dragging their ass to the DMV and forking over $30 for an ID should be perfectly fine.
- jariel 6y ago
  "Like a third to a half of the country thinks the election was illegitimate depending on how you phrase the question. I'd call that "a mess"" 1/3 of the USA will believe anything the President says, whoever the are. This is because the position of the President comes with a huge amount of legitimate authority. When that authority is transgressed, it causes a 'mess'. (Like if your doctor told you that 'Opium was good for you' - you might be inclined to believe them even if you thought you knew otherwise, after all, it's their job to know better). The 'real integrity' of the election, meaning election officials, governors, tabulators, Dept. of Justice - i.e. everyone involved in the system validates it as 'being ok' - then 'it's ok'. Don't confuse 'public perception' - which is manipulated and hugely influenced when legit authority is transgressed - with 'reality'. The 'cause' of the 'perceived mess' is someone transgressing their leadership responsibility. The 'perceived mess' has basically nothing to do with the election. 'Voter ID' would not materially change the quality of electoral outcomes, but would help tamp down concerns about voter fraud.

by jariel 6y ago

nelsonenzo 6y ago

considering we have $36B that we can afford to send to Nigeria, I think we could just make the ID free. Certainly we have all contributed at least $10 to the tax coffers at some point above 18.

djsumdog 6y ago

> There is no systematic fraud. > It appears as a mess because of the messaging of the President. We have GOP observers being thrown out of all of the critical election sites during the counting. We have tons of unsolicited ballots with no chain of custody. We have tons of confirmed cases of dead people voting, and women having votes case under maiden names. There is unmistakable, wide spread, voting irregularity. This isn't just the messaging of the president, this is a corrupt media that is on the side of establishment Democrats and Republicans that is clearly feeding a pure bullshit narrative to anyone willing to dull their senses, turn off all sources except the official industry standard media (Which got weapons of mass destruction wrong, which got Syria wrong, and which has a historic record of getting nearly everything wrong). If you stop listening to the various Ministries of Truth (both private and government) the entire idea there was "no election fraud" falls apart. The voting machines were/are a red haring. The real issue has always been the massive amounts of ballots with no chain of custody.

ric2b 6y ago
The courts have looked at these allegations and the actual evidence is slim to none, and far from being about a big enough number of votes to change the result of the election, it's not even enough to change the result in one state.
ThePowerOfFuet 6y ago
[citation needed]
jariel 6y ago
This is not true, and the and a good example of conspiratorial rationalization. Why doesn't Mike Pence, the VP back your claims? Are you saying you have more information that him? Why don't any GOP Senators? Judges? Consider if 'bad elections' claims had any merit whatsoever, the real GOP apparatus would be running full tilt at the problem. The Supreme Court would practically be inviting cases. Arguing that 'irregularities exist' is not an argument - because we know they exist, what matters is the magnitude and systematic efforts. The 'conspiratorial argument' falls apart immediately under any scrutiny - and there has been a lot of scrutiny. So we have a problem with giving out money, and appearance of problems in voting, maybe we can have 'voter ID' and get around some of the legitimacy/privacy issues. But the elections are effectively fair. Please try to understand that this is an issue of public communications and conspiratorial logic, and not reality. The 'ministries of truth' have considerably more integrity - especially as a whole - then

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

Like a third to a half of the country thinks the election was illegitimate depending on how you phrase the question. I'd call that "a mess" It doesn't matter whether there was or wasn't fraud in this context. A government is only legitimate because the people believe it is. The appearance of fraud challenges that belief. Challenge that belief enough and people die. The system needs to be sufficiently robust that the result cannot be disputed with any sort of credibility. If I need to pay a hundred bucks to get permission to buy a gun, DHS can search people with no reason within a hundred miles of the border, cops can seize your cash without evidence of a crime (I can go on) and the and all that's compatible with the constitution, then everyone dragging their ass to the DMV and forking over $30 for an ID should be perfectly fine.

jariel 6y ago
"Like a third to a half of the country thinks the election was illegitimate depending on how you phrase the question. I'd call that "a mess"" 1/3 of the USA will believe anything the President says, whoever the are. This is because the position of the President comes with a huge amount of legitimate authority. When that authority is transgressed, it causes a 'mess'. (Like if your doctor told you that 'Opium was good for you' - you might be inclined to believe them even if you thought you knew otherwise, after all, it's their job to know better). The 'real integrity' of the election, meaning election officials, governors, tabulators, Dept. of Justice - i.e. everyone involved in the system validates it as 'being ok' - then 'it's ok'. Don't confuse 'public perception' - which is manipulated and hugely influenced when legit authority is transgressed - with 'reality'. The 'cause' of the 'perceived mess' is someone transgressing their leadership responsibility. The 'perceived mess' has basically nothing to do with the election. 'Voter ID' would not materially change the quality of electoral outcomes, but would help tamp down concerns about voter fraud.