5 ms·

There are many factors involved, but at a basic level there is no robust record of identity and the federal or state level. Arguably both federal and state gov

There are many factors involved, but at a basic level there is no robust record of identity and the federal or state level. Arguably both federal and state governments should have a detailed record of who paid what taxes. Such a record could make this kind of fraud much more difficult. This might even be a context in which blockchains have some utility.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Blockchains have no utility here, national ID cards with cryptographic primitive support and robust IRL trust anchors do.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  Requiring ID? Some people say that disenfranchisement though. I wonder where the line is for that?
  - tehwebguy 6y ago
    The line is that voting is a right and unemployment isn't. That said, people pay into UI for their whole working life, then when they need it the payout is a joke, so it needs to be improved significantly IMO. The only reason people can survive on it right now is that it's been significantly boosted at the federal level.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    ID must be radically accessible for this to work. Very inexpensive cards and robust social systems for facilitating obtaining ID for those who face challenges getting to issuers.
    - miohtama 6y ago
      Most EU countries have strong online id systems, either guaranteed by banks and two-factor (Nordics) or even national id card (Estonia). In fact you do not need a card, as SMS two-factor prevents 99% of fraud (India, AADHAAR).
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        How does India’s identity provider solve for SIM hijacking for SMS 2FA?
rebuilder 6y ago
What need is there for a blockchain here?
- nelsonenzo 6y ago
  With Blockchain we could transfer our tax dollars in un-reversible transactions directly to the scammers, cut out all the middle men. That will show'em. /s
- m0llusk 6y ago
  Bullfighting was never asserted as need, only suggested as a possible tool. In order to live in this country I must document my income in great detail and own up to any tax obligations. Then when there is a disaster the government offers aid but asks me who I am and how I can prove myself worthy. You believe it makes sense for my government to demand detailed explanation of all income and then claim ignorance when a disaster strike? Why?
- m0llusk 6y ago
  Why are you getting off on Blockchains? In order to live legally I must document all income and pay substantial taxes. Then a disaster strikes and my government dares to claim it has no idea who so am or what is going on with my income. Maybe some tech like secure authorization, databases, blockchains, or other such might enable the government to operate in a competent manner? Sorry this idea offends you.
  - rebuilder 6y ago
    It doesn't offend me, I would just like to hear how a blockchain would help here.
klyrs 6y ago
AFAIK, blockchains are good for planet-scale distributed read&write access. The government is a central authority, and tax records are not generally public information. Sounds like a good application for a private-access, append-only database. What does the blockchain offer that, say, postgres can't handle? Right now the record of identity is a social security number. True, it's not terribly robust, and, for instance, can be stolen -- but so can your wallet if somebody finds your private key.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  The SSN isn't record though, it's the identifier for the record. I had to verify my federal tax filing this year. The agent or whatever was able to pull up my taxes from past years after a couple of authentication questions. Which that is what the GP poster is asking for, a more robust way of authenticating that a person corresponds to a record. It's a tough problem.
  - klyrs 6y ago
    Sure, I should have said identifier. I'm actually having trouble identifying myself to the government right now, because I lost my records in a recent move. It's a real problem, but ultimately I found a workaround in meatspace. That is, the workaround grants me access... but there's an unresolved issue: whoever's got that box of my records has everything they need to steal my identity. Is "the blockchain" going to prevent situations like this? Replace "lose a box of records" with data loss and/or exfiltration and you're in the same situation except perhaps that the "better mousetrap" will prevent the meatspace workaround from functioning.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      I also think there is a lot of risk that people start to think of official records as identity (so any flaw in the system can be used to harm people by messing up their records). But that isn't how it works, identity is an intrinsic thing and official records describe aspects of it. I certainly don't think a blockchain is of any use here. There might be some value in publishing some information in order to establish identities for use in other contexts, but a blockchain isn't necessary for that. Even issue cryptographically strong identity cards has a bunch of hard problems. How do you repudiate a card without possessing it, how do you obtain a new one if it breaks, etc., etc.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

Blockchains have no utility here, national ID cards with cryptographic primitive support and robust IRL trust anchors do.

SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
Requiring ID? Some people say that disenfranchisement though. I wonder where the line is for that?
- tehwebguy 6y ago
  The line is that voting is a right and unemployment isn't. That said, people pay into UI for their whole working life, then when they need it the payout is a joke, so it needs to be improved significantly IMO. The only reason people can survive on it right now is that it's been significantly boosted at the federal level.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  ID must be radically accessible for this to work. Very inexpensive cards and robust social systems for facilitating obtaining ID for those who face challenges getting to issuers.
  - miohtama 6y ago
    Most EU countries have strong online id systems, either guaranteed by banks and two-factor (Nordics) or even national id card (Estonia). In fact you do not need a card, as SMS two-factor prevents 99% of fraud (India, AADHAAR).
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      How does India’s identity provider solve for SIM hijacking for SMS 2FA?

rebuilder 6y ago

What need is there for a blockchain here?

nelsonenzo 6y ago
With Blockchain we could transfer our tax dollars in un-reversible transactions directly to the scammers, cut out all the middle men. That will show'em. /s
m0llusk 6y ago
Bullfighting was never asserted as need, only suggested as a possible tool. In order to live in this country I must document my income in great detail and own up to any tax obligations. Then when there is a disaster the government offers aid but asks me who I am and how I can prove myself worthy. You believe it makes sense for my government to demand detailed explanation of all income and then claim ignorance when a disaster strike? Why?
m0llusk 6y ago
Why are you getting off on Blockchains? In order to live legally I must document all income and pay substantial taxes. Then a disaster strikes and my government dares to claim it has no idea who so am or what is going on with my income. Maybe some tech like secure authorization, databases, blockchains, or other such might enable the government to operate in a competent manner? Sorry this idea offends you.
- rebuilder 6y ago
  It doesn't offend me, I would just like to hear how a blockchain would help here.

klyrs 6y ago

AFAIK, blockchains are good for planet-scale distributed read&write access. The government is a central authority, and tax records are not generally public information. Sounds like a good application for a private-access, append-only database. What does the blockchain offer that, say, postgres can't handle? Right now the record of identity is a social security number. True, it's not terribly robust, and, for instance, can be stolen -- but so can your wallet if somebody finds your private key.

maxerickson 6y ago
The SSN isn't record though, it's the identifier for the record. I had to verify my federal tax filing this year. The agent or whatever was able to pull up my taxes from past years after a couple of authentication questions. Which that is what the GP poster is asking for, a more robust way of authenticating that a person corresponds to a record. It's a tough problem.
- klyrs 6y ago
  Sure, I should have said identifier. I'm actually having trouble identifying myself to the government right now, because I lost my records in a recent move. It's a real problem, but ultimately I found a workaround in meatspace. That is, the workaround grants me access... but there's an unresolved issue: whoever's got that box of my records has everything they need to steal my identity. Is "the blockchain" going to prevent situations like this? Replace "lose a box of records" with data loss and/or exfiltration and you're in the same situation except perhaps that the "better mousetrap" will prevent the meatspace workaround from functioning.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    I also think there is a lot of risk that people start to think of official records as identity (so any flaw in the system can be used to harm people by messing up their records). But that isn't how it works, identity is an intrinsic thing and official records describe aspects of it. I certainly don't think a blockchain is of any use here. There might be some value in publishing some information in order to establish identities for use in other contexts, but a blockchain isn't necessary for that. Even issue cryptographically strong identity cards has a bunch of hard problems. How do you repudiate a card without possessing it, how do you obtain a new one if it breaks, etc., etc.